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Aidan Bradley

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2010, 10:35:08 PM »
What about Shell Landing? 

http://www.shelllanding.com


paul cowley

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2010, 11:09:09 PM »
I really like the Retreat course at Sea Island, which I think was done by DL III and co. I wouldn't call it a Rossnor or whatever, however.

I do too Carl....part of our mission with Retreat was to make it a more "egalitarian, members can have fun everyday as opposed to the other two redo's by T Fazio and R Jones" type of course....and by all accounts we have been successful, as the course gets the most play by Sea Island members.

I would love to push the bunkers a little more strategically....most would like the change without knowing it.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2010, 09:12:46 AM »
I must say even though I probably haven't seen that many Love Co. courses, seeing as where Davis Love and the guys of Love design live it seems like they've had some pretty fine sites and material to work with in those coastal salt marshes and pine woods of South Georgia.

JC Jones

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 09:39:01 AM »
I was very pleased with the one DL3 course I played.  I found the greens to have good interest and the holes to have great variety.  Although located in southwest Florida, the course did not play like a typical Florida golf course.  I look forward to seeing more of their work.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Nugent

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 09:41:32 AM »
""...a professional architect,"   ???   How exactly did he ascend to this?  I though PC was the professional architect in the team."


Tim:

PC is a professional golf architect. He's also a professional building architect and professional land planner. How did Davis Love ascend to be a professional architect? By starting a golf architecture company, putting his name on it and taking a fee for designing golf courses, I guess. Is there some other formal requirement to being a professional golf architect I'm not aware of?  ;)

TEP, as PC correctly states, there is no formal requirement.  However, form the inside looking out, I contend that Owning a company that designs golf courses doesn't make one a golf course architect - especially if that company must employ golf course architects to do the actual work.  By this I refer to being able to prepare the contract documents - plans/specifications/contract etc. required to get he project financed/permitted/built and can oversee the work.  Otherwise, I see him as more of an intermediary, like a Project Manager/consultant who puts the pieces together but doesn't actually perform any of the prescribed functions.

Now, if DLIII went out solo and was able to produce a course (even without any formal training/education) I wouldn't have a problem with the term.  But to me, a Professional anything is one who poseeses all the pertenant abilites and knowledge to perform that task independently of help.  Otherwise, it just comes down to money.  I could call myself a Professional Golfer if I had a tournement, put up a big enough purse to attract big names and gave myself a sponsers exemption.  Or a Professional writer by paying a ghost write and putting my name on the books  Granted, Governments have put up obsticles (Licensing) to prevent this from happening in certain fields (Law, medicine, engineering, etc.) but just because there isn't the need to obtain a License, does automatically convey a professional status on anyone who wishes it. Or, maybe I'll just go out tomorrow and hire a couple lawyers and hence become a lawyer.
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2010, 09:58:12 AM »
TimN:

Understood. In that case maybe Davis Love III just calls himself a professional tour golfer who owns a golf architecture company, and that's the way me or anyone else should think about him.

Would you call Ben Crenshaw a professional golf architect?

Jud_T

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2010, 10:06:32 AM »
Our group didn't think much of the Barefoot Love course.  Probably the only one I've played....

Curious as to why, and what you thought of it compared to the other Barefoot courses if you had the opportunity to play any.

It was the only Barefoot course we played.  It played extremely difficult on a very windy day, although that could be partly explained by tees played by some given the wind.  More importantly we were very dissapointed with the conditioning, and the course paled in comparison to Legends Heathland and TPC Myrtle.  Probably a good test for a strong player, but given that I'm sure it wasn't the only windy day they get there one could question the design for the target market...Also if I recall correctly I really disliked the quality of the sand, and I got plenty of opportunity to test it. ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Nugent

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2010, 10:40:02 AM »
TEP That's a tougher cat to skin.  First of all it's a partnership C & C.  I have yet to see a Ben Crenshaw course.  Plus, the method of producing their courses is akin to a D/B although employing outside contractors for some/all of the work, I believe (speculating) they have an on-site crew.

In many of the histories of their projects, it seems that Bill Coore spends the initial time with the property to ascertain if/what course they will build.  With this partnership, clearly the sum is greater than the parts.  If I were a betting man, I would believe that given the 2 separately, on the same site, Coore's result would be closer than Crenshaw's to what a C & C would be.  

It's one thig to have ideas, another to be able to convy those in a manner to get them prosecuted.  And to be able to coherently formulate the concept when nothing exists.  It's been my experience that some who claim to be GCA's, merely comment upon the foundation begun by others. For example, Morrish and Weiscopf.  A pretty good partnership, but after they broke up???  How many Tom Weiscopf solo courses are notable? But Jay went on to do some.

Unfortunately, with Pro Golfers, it's easier to assess.  Palmer (F. Duane then Ed Seay, now Eriic Larsen), Nichlaus (Muirhead, Dye, Morrish, Cupp...) etc.  Many top name GCA's have had very good underlings for years, but no one really knows how they function.  The Jones (all 3 - too many to list), Fazio (Fry, Banfield, Marzolf), but, in their case, they all did the work at one time but gradulated to rainmaker status - much like a Senior partner at a big law firm.

I guess one way to look at it is...if let to their own demize, could they produce without anyone else.  My guess is that Ben might be able to by now - I'm sure he picked up enough along the way.  But, in the beginnig, if he could, there probably wouldn't be a Coore around now.

JUD, seems like your judgement the architectual merits of Barefoot were highly influenced by the conditioning - something the architects might have little control.  Was it that the poor manitenance was influenced by the difficulty of the architecture or are they just skimping in hard times?  Did you play any other Barefoot courses with better maintenance?  I know when I played Fazio and Dye, Dye was in much worse shape and I told Pete he'd better get on the horn because I liked his course better but Joe Six-Pack would probably tell his friends how much better Fazio was, just on maintenance alone.


Coasting is a downhill process

Anthony Gray

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2010, 06:35:42 PM »


  Diamonte is in the top 5 fun courses I've played.

   Anthony


TEPaul

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2010, 07:18:20 PM »
TimN:

Your Rely #32 to me is a most interesting post, thoughts, info.

Thanks for that.

I guess I could say, at this point, I've been out on enough sites with enough architects and companies to know and have seen pretty clearly what all you mean there.

I've actually only been on a site with Ben once and another site once with Davis and I must say I was really impressed with what I saw and heard from both of them. I mean with each at two separate places and times a lot of very interesting dicussion went on, conceptually, philosophically, technically etc.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 07:22:35 PM by TEPaul »

Jud_T

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2010, 07:18:47 PM »
Tim,
A fair point.  The architecture itself wasn't bad although I recall a certain sameness of challenge on a number of holes.  I'd really need another go of it to give it a fair shake.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kenny Baer

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2010, 08:11:53 PM »
I have played Retreat at Sea Island and loved it; a great compliment to Seaside and Plantation.  I found it superior to Plantation which is pretty phenomonal considering the land for Plantation was far superior.  So many options off the tee if you play the correct tees, hole after hole is fun, the way golf should be.

Jamey Bryan

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2010, 08:44:38 PM »
There's an under-the-radar course in mid SC (on Lake Greenwood, midway from Columbia to Greenville), The Patriot Course, that's really, really good.  Not a single bad hole, fun, and doesn't beat you up.

I like the Love Barefoot course a lot, in fact it's my favorite course at Barefoot.

I'm continually frustrated that I can't get down to see the work at Brunswick and Sea Island.


Jamey

paul cowley

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2010, 07:40:22 AM »
Thanks guys...our courses have been works in process. I feel we have learned and matured a lot in our 17 years of existence.

I enjoy the 'fun' comments the best. Its one of my top priorities, and harder to do than you would think.

Jamey's right about the Patriot, but I guess its just too out of the way for exposure.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 05:02:17 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

ward peyronnin

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2010, 02:03:46 PM »
I want to weigh in on Diamonte also as i fear from the rate of expenditure and the lack of revenue it may not be around long.

I think this is the most dramatic course in Cabo(moreso than Querencia). Not a desert course but a dunes course and what dunes( there is even an active dune on the property). DL3 has a creative routing and and some of the holes reminded of the best at Wallesly, raised greens on top of dunes viewed from below in enclosed playing corridors, The greens had a lot of movement and varied in size and character. Good short par fours and one shotter variety too.   Playing angles were interesting as well. And a great finishing hole.

A few weaker holes on the back behind the dune complex; (well maybe just number 12 i believe). Well worth seeking out and the amenities are superb.

You must also have a post round cocktail in a beautiful clubhouse hosted by the incomparable Alma; a Mexican beauty who is spellbinding!
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

paul cowley

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2010, 05:11:31 PM »
I want to weigh in on Diamonte also as i fear from the rate of expenditure and the lack of revenue it may not be around long.

I think this is the most dramatic course in Cabo(moreso than Querencia). Not a desert course but a dunes course and what dunes( there is even an active dune on the property). DL3 has a creative routing and and some of the holes reminded of the best at Wallesly, raised greens on top of dunes viewed from below in enclosed playing corridors, The greens had a lot of movement and varied in size and character. Good short par fours and one shotter variety too.   Playing angles were interesting as well. And a great finishing hole.

A few weaker holes on the back behind the dune complex; (well maybe just number 12 i believe). Well worth seeking out and the amenities are superb.

You must also have a post round cocktail in a beautiful clubhouse hosted by the incomparable Alma; a Mexican beauty who is spellbinding!



ward....glad you enjoyed the course...and Alma!

They are starting to move some real estate and memberships, which is encouraging.....but equally encouraging is that they have some strong overseas investors who should be long term.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Greg Tallman

Re: Davis Love III Courses
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2010, 07:38:59 PM »
I want to weigh in on Diamonte also as i fear from the rate of expenditure and the lack of revenue it may not be around long.

I think this is the most dramatic course in Cabo(moreso than Querencia). Not a desert course but a dunes course and what dunes( there is even an active dune on the property). DL3 has a creative routing and and some of the holes reminded of the best at Wallesly, raised greens on top of dunes viewed from below in enclosed playing corridors, The greens had a lot of movement and varied in size and character. Good short par fours and one shotter variety too.   Playing angles were interesting as well. And a great finishing hole.

A few weaker holes on the back behind the dune complex; (well maybe just number 12 i believe). Well worth seeking out and the amenities are superb.

You must also have a post round cocktail in a beautiful clubhouse hosted by the incomparable Alma; a Mexican beauty who is spellbinding!



ward....glad you enjoyed the course...and Alma!

They are starting to move some real estate and memberships, which is encouraging.....but equally encouraging is that they have some strong overseas investors who should be long term.

Paul, hope you are correct but fear that it is quite an uphill battle for the current group... the numbers are simply hard to get to where one could breathe without a snorkle.

As for Alma Seņor Gray was quite taken withy the stunning young lady  and rightfully so.

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