[Chris Kane]

Invariably in Australian golf, Kingston Heath and New South Wales are considered among the best courses behind Royal Melbourne.

In Ran Morrissett fashion, I've put together a matchplay analysis of the holes at both courses: comments would be of interest.

1. KH  KH 1up
2. KH  KH 2up
3. KH  KH 3up
4. NSW  KH 2up
5. NSW  KH 1up
6. NSW  All Square!
7. NSW  NSW 1up
8. KH  All Square
9. KH  KH 1up
10. KH  KH 2up
11. NSW  KH 1up
12. NSW  All Square
13. NSW  NSW 1up
14. Halved  NSW 1up
15. KH  All Square
16. Halved  All Square
17. KH  KH 1up
18. KH  KH 2up  

What to make of this?  IMHO, Kingston Heath probably features better architecture, but NSW takes advantage of an unbelievable property.  In particular, the view from the ridge on 5 is hard to beat.

[corey miller]

NSW is one of the most memorable rounds of golf I have ever played and my "where to play vote" would most certainly go to NSW.  Masterful bunkering on a flat property vs the rugged spectacular beauty and quirkiness of NSW.

Will have to look more carfully at the individual hole analysis later especially when 14 nsw(one of my favorite holes anywhere) only gets a halve.  seems like some of the holes at KH just sneak by if that whereas the NSW winners are more clear. Will get back to you later

[Chris Kane]

Corey,

There were some excellent holes on both courses which lost or only got halves.  For example, 6 at KH is a mighty par 4, but 6 at NSW is incredible.

14 at KH is a great par-5 with incredible bunkering - however, I may have to rethink a half there.  The NSW hole, as you rightly point out, is something special.

That 5-7 stretch at NSW is incredible, although I think 5 would be too easy with a strong tailwind.  Probably a better hole in benign conditions, so you have a long-iron 2nd shot rather than a wedge.

If I could play either course tomorrow, I'd play NSW, which is the real test I guess.  Architecturally, KH is streets ahead, but the location of NSW is such a factor.  It's a course where you can have a great time even if you play poorly.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Chris:
During a short trip to Australia when I was a mere 20 years old, I was graciously hosted by the professionals of both of these fine clubs. What a fondly recalled experience.
New South Wales has some of the most beautiful holes ever constructed. Number 5 is one of the best par fives in the world, and achieves what number 8 at Pebble fails at: providing strategy. It's a fine golf course that is surely undervalued in global appreciation.
Kingston Heath is the Merion of Australia; a wonderful routing on a tiny piece of land. And what bunkering?! I cannot recall a more enjoyable round of golf; I played with a member who summered up north at Wentworth, and had a round of stirring golf not soon forgotten.
To compare these courses is an excericise I cannot respond to. I will, however, state that both courses should be seen by all that love great architecture.

[Chris Kane]

Jeff,

What struck me about NSW was how simple it was.  Apart from a couple of holes near the clubhouse, nothing looked artificial or contrived.  The routing really does flow naturally across the dunes, combined with simple greens and bunkering.

It's difficult to argue that one course is better than another, and you state cases for both courses very well.  They are very different courses, but worthy of comparison because they are often mentioned in the same vein (ie. which is Australia's second best course?).

I'm going to get my photos developed tomorrow, so I'll post them asap.

[Neal_Meagher]

Mr. Stettner,

I believe that you must have meant hole no. 6 at Pebble Beach, not the par-4 over the cliff no. 8.  Although, why do you feel that that hole is sans strategy?

By the way, was that trip a mere 5 years ago?

[Ran Morrissett]

Chris,

A very interesting comparison and to me, what we're talking about are the 2nd and 3rd finest courses in the country, regardless of who 'wins'.

I agree with 16 of your 18 matches but I would definitely give 14 to NSW for its around-the-world uniqueness and I would lean toward giving 16 there as well, in part because it can play so different each day with the wind. Plus the tee shot at 16 at KH is the least interesting of the four full shots on those two holes, though the approach is excellent.

Corey got it right in his description "Masterful bunkering (and greens) on a flat property vs the rugged spectacular beauty and quirkiness of NSW" and also "my "where to play vote" would most certainly go to NSW".

Ultimately, isn't the inspiring nature at NSWGC perhaps too much for Kingston Heath - regardless of its excellent features and presentation - to overcome? I think so, especially when you consider that the wind can give NSWGC about 50 different looks during the year. Hitting driver-three wood -1iron one day into the 5th and then driver-sand wedge into it the next week is tough for an inland course to compete with on the thrill meter  

Cheers,

[Jeff_Stettner]

Neal:
No, I did mean 8. The tee shots and approaches are very similar; blind uphill off the tee followed by a downhill approach to a small green near the water. The difference here, is that 8 is a four with some slight options off the tee and one clear thought on the apporach, while 5 at NSW can be played a number of ways (I know it's a par 5 and I'm comparing apples and kumquats, but hey, I don't care).
As for my age, a mere five years for you is a lifetime for me. When I get to be your age I'm sure I'll feel differently.

[Rick]

Hi Chris!

I can't add much of meaningful merit to the comparison having played NSW on our recent foray downunder but without the fortune to play KH. I must admit that I thought that NSW was the finest course I played in Australia, the experience marred by a terrific squall that thoroughly drenched us from holes 3 through 8. When the temperatures reached 37°C later in the round after the storm, I truly understood what "sauna" meant!

A suggestion. Rather than compare the holes in chronological sequence, why not grade the respective holes on each course by par value. You would then have the heirarchy of the par three, par four and par five holes for each course that can be compared orange by orange, apple by apple. Comparing a par three hole to a par five hole is truly awkward but comparing a courses best par five to another courses best par five might add value to the excercize. Give it a go and provide a report! Good on ya, lad!

[Fred Ruttenberg]

In my opinion the above comments do not convey the wide disparity between the two courses. NSW is one of the most outstanting courses that I have played and rates with the best in the British Isles certainly due in large part by its dramatic venue. KH is a fine course but is just not memorable. I would not put it in the same league as Merion. Rather it would be comparable to Winged Foot West,which while a fine course, I would pass up in a minute to play Shinnecock. I am not comparing architectual achievements, rather "where would you like to paly" if given a choice.

[Chris Kane]

Fred,
What you say has a lot of merit - I'd play NSW any day too.  Hole-by-hole, the contest is very close, but the scenery, wind and atmosphere of NSW gives it the prize.

Rick,
Good to hear from you, here is a comparison in your suggested format: I've ranked the holes on each course together in order from best to most ordinary.  Particularly with the 4's, this was difficult, and I concede now that the list is a long way from being on the mark.  

Par-3 (both courses are very strong here)
1. 15 KH
2. 6 NSW
3. 11 NSW
4. 10 KH
5. 5 KH
6. 17 NSW
7. 2 NSW

Par-4 (doing this was almost impossible to get right first go, and the result verges on stupid in some cases)
1. 7 NSW
2. 13 NSW
3. 6 KH
4. 15 NSW
5. 14 NSW
6. 16 NSW
7. 17 KH
8. 8 KH
9. 4 NSW
10. 2 KH
11. 3 KH
12. 1 KH
13. 4 KH
14. 9 KH
15. 18 KH
16. 16 KH
17. 9 NSW
18. 11 KH
19. 3 NSW
20. 13 KH
21. 10 NSW
22. 1 NSW

Par-5 (a clear weakness for NSW, despite having the most spectacular 5 in the country)
1. 5 NSW
2. 14 KH
3. 7 KH
4. 12 KH
5. 12 NSW
6. 18 NSW
7. 8 NSW

An interesting exercise, but your comments will contribute to its revision over the coming days.  What did I learn from this?  That NSW has three ordinary 5's, the par-3's on both courses are excellent, and that rating the 4's could take weeks to do properly! (For those Australians here, it is like filling out a Senate ballot paper below the line - easy to pick the best and worst, but the rest of the task is ensuring you assign a number to every box!)

[corey miller]

Chris- I admire the effort though I can see the futility of rating the course this way especially the par fours, i certainly would not try from 12000 miles away.  Actually, in the first rating i believed you were selling some nsw holes short but in the second ratings it seems you like them just as much as I do.  The two loops along the water at NSW 5,6,7 and 13,14,15,16 are just so strong.  As I posted, 14,15 was a particular favorite with 15 fairway playing up the same valley/fairway as the preferred route on 14.  just real cool.
15 though is competing against one of the great par threes anywhere 15 at KH.

One of the many positives about the australian courses is the preponderance of the short par 4.  Could KH 3 be the worlds best par three that is on totally flat land?  Pin was front left, just never remember ever having two balls in fairway that were only ten yards apart(70 yds from green) that played so totally different because of angle of green and bunkering.

I lost my second shot on NSW 5(a four iron over hill down the left side) which I thought was a good shot.  I could not figure out where the ball could have went.  Pretty neat shot options when you can lose a ball on a blind shot and have to search in a darn 100 yd radius because of the dramatic topography. i was looking both sides in the rough from 100 yds in and then even checked beyond the green. Really great stuff.

[Chris Kane]

Corey,

I agree completely that 15 is a great par 3 - even 6 at NSW doesn't come close in my opinion.  Both great great holes though, which you could play one hundred times over and still see something new.

At NSW, the holes over the sand dune leave the others to shame, as you can tell from my rankings.

Australian golf, although I've never played elsewhere, is renowned for the short par-4's and the par-3's.  This is particularly so on the sandbelt.

The 5th at NSW is the most stunning scene I've ever seen, on a golf course or not.  It can play many different ways depending on the wind.  With a very strong tailwind, it plays driver-wedge, which is perhaps a little too easy.  Nice green complex too - so difficult to stop the ball on.

[Anthony O'Shea]

Rick,

That terrific squall and thorough drenching from 3-8 sounds vaguely familiar. I was playing NSW one time with an overseas visitor who had to leave his rainpants on as the steam was rising from the fairways.  

I hope you don't mind, but I recently used your opinion of RM (if not your name) in vain on another thread here.

Anthony.

[Paul Daley]

How small is a bee's ...?

As the whole golfing world is progressingly turning toward coastal locations as its preferred golfing environment, courses are being elevated over what they once were. Kingston Heath can never compete with NSW on the wow factor, its eerie remote location, or the ever-changing wind ripping through. KH - being on the Sandbelt gets awfully windy, but we are not really comparing apples with apples, in this instance.

In one way, KH is a better acheivement, given the small parcel of land Dan Soutar had to work with in 1925.

They share much in common; not the least, a visit by the good Doctor in 1926/27.

Establishing which is the premier hole of the 36, is anybody's guess. My pick is the 15th at KH, and lets all thank our lucky stars that Mackenzie turned it from a blind 225 yard par four into the brilliant hole it is today. Also, what about Soutar's inspired last minute changing of the 10th from playing it ... east-to-west, to east-to-west.

As for that sadly dying genre: the world-class short par four, KH (3rd) gets my vote over any at NSW - just.

At first casual thought, NSW is usually ahead of KH, but when you factor in KH bunkering - surely among the top-five on the globe, gee it becomes close.

I sense KH is the better course (where's that bee) but I would rather play at NSW. The two categories are quite different.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

That last statement is loaded with dynamite - "I sense KH is the better course (where's that bee) but I would rather play at NSW. The two categories are quite different."

By better, do you mean KH enjoys the better architecture? That's undoubtedly true. Otherwise, by definition, shouldn't the better course be the one that begs for a return came more so than the other?

Cheers,

PS KH's bunkers get soooo much press and yet I wonder if its green contours are every bit as impressive?

[Paul Daley]

Ran: Absolutely. KH is a better design than NSW.

Usually, I'm all for being dragged back to the best place, time after time, but because a comparision between KH and NSW is so close, I can be swayed (in this example) by my heart over head; scenery, location, proximity to coast, rugged excitement of NSW. They really are two entirely different courses, and I would comfortably choose NSW most days.

However, I would never go in for this 'line of thinking' when
comparing Old Head Kinsale, to NSW. The Irish course may have even better scenery than NSW, but because its layout is hardly worth a lick, I choose KH every time over that one.

In a similar vein, I will always choose to play at a great design, in woeful condition, than a poor course in excellent condition. But that will have to wait for another thread.

Regarding KH's green contours, there are some incredible ones - tough but fair! I'm thinking of the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 15th.

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