Davis Love III Courses

[Andrew Summerell]

I’ve been watching the Nationwide event at Kinderlou Forest GC which is apparently a Davis Love III course.

What has interested me is that many of the greens have a more ‘traditional’ look to many of the new courses we see on any of the tours. (At least they look traditional on TV). There doesn’t seem to be an over amount of unnecessary mounding around the greens, a couple of false fronts & a couple of bunkerless greens where a pond or ravine is enough of a hazard.

I have never played a DL3 course. Is this typical of what he is designing & how do his courses compare locally to other new courses? Does he get heavily involved in the design process?

[Jason Topp]

I believe I have played two of his courses although I can only specifically recall one of them.  It had interesting more traditional (almost geometric) shaping of bunkers and greens.  It was very playable for all levels.  My only area of concern was whether the course contained sufficient interest from tee to green. 

In my view, a wide course is better than a narrow course, but a wide course can become monotonous unless there are design features that cause one to think about where to place the ball off the tee.  If the course I played presented such challenges, I failed to notice or understand them.  I just aimed for the middle and did not see a more attractive alternative.

I have no idea whether my experience is representative of Love design courses in general. 

[TEPaul]

After their first couple of courses the Davis Love company began to refer to their style as "Rossnor" (Ross/Raynor). Apparently the CGC made a big impression on Davis and Mark.

[Andrew Summerell]

After their first couple of courses the Davis Love company began to refer to their style as "Rossnor" (Ross/Raynor). Apparently the CGC made a big impression on Davis and Mark.

And do they play like a Ross or a Raynor course? (It's a bit of an unusual combo)

[TEPaul]

Andrew:

That certainly does seem like an unusual combo. All I can tell you is they play like a Davis Love Co course.

I really like the Davis Love Co courses I've seen but that's only his earliest ones around his base of operations in coastal Southern Georgia.

I did some consulting on a project in Maryland with Davis and Mark and Paul Cowley. In my opinion, those guys get it; I really liked the way they looked at things and do things (architecture).

As a professional golfer and as a professional golf architect, I believe Davis Love has a whole lot of respect for Ben Crenshaw and the way he went about the business of golf architecture and in some ways would like to emulate that.

[Jason Topp]

After their first couple of courses the Davis Love company began to refer to their style as "Rossnor" (Ross/Raynor). Apparently the CGC made a big impression on Davis and Mark.

That description actually makes some sense to me.  I do like the look.

[Joe Bausch]

I've only played one Love course, that being at the Barefoot Resort in South Carolina.  If they have others as good or better, I can hardly wait to see them.

[Mike Cirba]

Kinderlou looked terrific and seems to be playing nicely as well.

[Matthew Sander]

Kinderlou does come across very niclely on TV and is a nice departure from the typical Nationwide tournament course. I also believe that Davis Love did the redesign of Forest Oaks in Greensboro. The tour has since moved on to Sedgefield CC, but the last handful of events at Forest Oaks were after Love's efforts. It looked quite good...

[Mike Hendren]

Kinderlou does come across very niclely on TV and is a nice departure from the typical Nationwide tournament course. I also believe that Davis Love did the redesign of Forest Oaks in Greensboro. The tour has since moved on to Sedgefield CC, but the last handful of events at Forest Oaks were after Love's efforts. It looked quite good...

Forest Oaks is an excellent redo of a tired Ellis Maples housing course.  Restrained yet strategic bunkering and a hit parade of internal green contours, including a nifty Biarritz at the par five second.  Kind of a "Ross meets Raynor" feel. 

I also like what the firm did at the unique and elastic Origins Course on the Gulf Coast.  The little figure eight shaped green at the 8th (when played as a nine-hole routing) is a unique favorite that should be imported elsewhere on perfectly flat ground.

Mike

[Tim Martin]

I played Laurel Island Links in Southern Georgia some years ago and really enjoyed it. Some good holes around the Crooked River basin with interesting green complexes. This is one of his earliest designs.

[A.G._Crockett]

Love courses I've seen:

Barefoot Landing (Myrtle Beach)--best of the Barefoot courses, IMO, and very, very good by any measure
Laurel Island Links--very good, very much under the radar.
Kinderlou Forest--easily one of the 10 best public access courses in GA, and holds it's own with the best private clubs as well.  Very cool greens, very cool use of a quarry, just a great effort.
The Preserve at Jordan Lake--solid daily fee in the Chapel Hill, NC area.  Very playable.
Windermere (Cumming, GA)--now private, it's a good golf course on a terrible piece of land; houses got the best, golf took the rest type of thing...

Nothing but good experiences with these courses, but Kinderlou and Barefoot are a little special, I think.  Both are must-plays if you are nearby.

Having played both Forest Oaks and Brunswick before the Love renovations, I'm very anxious to see their work there.

[Ronald Montesano]

Is Paul Cowley still alive and well and with Davis?  I remember him musing about alternative career paths at the moment that golf course architecture was following suit to the economy.  I haven't seen a post from him on here in a while.

Signed, Concerned

[Matt MacIver]

I've played Laurel Links and thought it had some really interesting holes. 

I've also played his recently re-designed and renamed Irish Creek - it was previously Kannapolis (NC) CC.  Irish Creek is flat-out great.  Highly contoured greens, plays firm and the routing is interesting - nice elevation changes and a good mix of risk-reward.  I'm hoping to see and play more of their work. 

[paul cowley]

Ronald....I'm very alive and well...thanks for asking! Following this thread and considering what's not happening in the golf design world makes this feel much like old home week....as much for the posters as the courses!

I hope everyone is doing well!

I am pleased that for those who have a fondness for our courses....we don't try to be the same and prefer to react to each site differently. Kinderlou is as different from Barefoot as they both are from newly opened Diamante...all had different sites and program needs.

We have become a good design team, and I feel our best work is yet to come....can't wait.

Aside...I was hoping to invest in a more 'green' business venture, assuming there might be some form of gov't support and incentives to help with start up ventures.

Sad to reply that there has been little but talk.

[Link Walsh]

Matt,

Love did the redesign at the UGA course, and your highly contoured greens comment about Irish Creek would definitely fit UGA as well.  They are the kind of greens where, depending on pin position, the hole could play very different- which means more fun for us.  I have enjoyed all the Love courses I've played, although I will echo A.G.'s comment about Windemere not getting the best piece of land to work with.    

[Ed Oden]

Matt, I agree on Irish Creek.  It is very solid.  For those interested, here is an old thread... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32910.0/

[Steve Lang]

  Anderson Creek left me wanting to have DLIII's length, so we moved up a tee after a while and enjoyed the course more, though after 36 holes it seemed like so many other NC courses.. uphill and downhill shots, sloping fairways sort of blend together after a week ..

not sure it was worth the drive from Southern Pines to play there..  preferred Bayonet at Puppy Creek

[TEPaul]

I saw it mentioned above----Laurel Links. I think that's the only Love course I've ever actually played. It was a long time ago and I believe I played it alone. I really liked everything about it and I don't even know that I knew it was a Love course when I went there. It was sort of ethereal to me being out there alone on those good and interesting holes amongst the salt marshes of South Georgia. There were no houses or anything like that then, and it was quite the experience---I was impressed; it was emotional in a natural walk in nature with some good golf holes sort of way. If there are houses now that ruin affect that feeling I had with the quieting atmosphere of those Georgia salt marshes and golf holes I don't look at that as much of anything to do with the Love Co and what they did out there with that golf course.

[Tim Nugent]

Andrew:

That certainly does seem like an unusual combo. All I can tell you is they play like a Davis Love Co course.

I really like the Davis Love Co courses I've seen but that's only his earliest ones around his base of operations in coastal Southern Georgia.

I did some consulting on a project in Maryland with Davis and Mark and Paul Cowley. In my opinion, those guys get it; I really liked the way they looked at things and do things (architecture).

As a professional golfer and as a professional golf architect, I believe Davis Love has a whole lot of respect for Ben Crenshaw and the way he went about the business of golf architecture and in some ways would like to emulate that.

"...a professional architect,"     How exactly did he ascend to this?  I though PC was the professional architect in the team.

[Jud_T]

Our group didn't think much of the Barefoot Love course.  Probably the only one I've played....

[TEPaul]

""...a professional architect,"      How exactly did he ascend to this?  I though PC was the professional architect in the team."


Tim:

PC is a professional golf architect. He's also a professional building architect and professional land planner. How did Davis Love ascend to be a professional architect? By starting a golf architecture company, putting his name on it and taking a fee for designing golf courses, I guess. Is there some other formal requirement to being a professional golf architect I'm not aware of? 

[paul cowley]

""...a professional architect,"      How exactly did he ascend to this?  I though PC was the professional architect in the team."


Tim:

PC is a professional golf architect. He's also a professional building architect and professional land planner. How did Davis Love ascend to be a professional architect? By starting a golf architecture company, putting his name on it and taking a fee for designing golf courses, I guess. Is there some other formal requirement to being a professional golf architect I'm not aware of? 

Well, its certainly not by getting a degree in GCArch, as no such degree is offered.
Much of the time you are what someone is willing to pay you to do...but that arrangement rarely lasts long unless one can deliver.

I like your definition Tom...and thanks.

[Carl Nichols]

I really like the Retreat course at Sea Island, which I think was done by DL III and co. I wouldn't call it a Rossnor or whatever, however.

[A.G._Crockett]

Our group didn't think much of the Barefoot Love course.  Probably the only one I've played....

Curious as to why, and what you thought of it compared to the other Barefoot courses if you had the opportunity to play any.

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