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Andrew Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« on: April 03, 2010, 11:43:01 AM »
I had the great pleasure of joining Jack Crisham, Paul Thomas and Dave Schmidt for a round at Ravisloe yesterday – firm conditions and a steady two-club wind.  And apart from the wealth of great stories shared after the round, I wanted to share my favorite GCA moment.

The 16th hole is a par four that cards 390 yards from the tips.  The tee shot plays slightly downhill across a swale to another rise.  If one carries the rise (no more than 200 yards), the land falls down again and then gently back up to a skyline-ish green framed by a large bunker around 50 yards short on the left, and greenside bunkers abutting it on the right.  The green is extremely shallow (maybe 15-20 paces?) and cants sharply away from the fairway.  The back bank is shaved as a chipping area.

Two of our wind-aided tee balls found the left rough around 75-90 yards from the green, requiring lofted shots over the large bunker.  The third arrived in the right side of the fairway (courtesy of a friendly ricochet) at ~150 yards, with a clearer view of the green.  And the fourth didn’t happen because of a cell phone misplaced a few holes back  ::)

The results?  The right fairway shot, a purely struck nine iron, hit toward the middle of the green then promptly ran some 20 yards over.  The left rough shots, played with wedges, both cleared the bunker, they landed pathetically short…perhaps influenced by the first shot and fear of also bouncing over the green.

Despite the unimpressive outcomes, all agreed that it was an impressive hole.

While waiting on the next tee, we watched the group of septuagenarians in the group behind us play running shots that cleared the short-left bunker and chased up onto and – importantly – held the shallow green.  Our group made two key observations:  a)the old guys were playing from further away and b)the old guys knew what they were doing.

But did the old guys, in fact, know what they were doing?  Were their running shots products of necessity, i.e., would they have preferred to have shorter clubs in hand but simply lost the distance over time?  Or were they products of strategic choice, i.e., did they knowingly play to a distance that would accommodate running shots with longer clubs?

And should I have laid up off the tee and tried to bounce in a mid-iron rather than spin a wedge?  Which way did the architect intend for the hole to play?  And what decision have others who have played Ravisloe made?

Television commentators these days often note that players sometimes lay back in order to hit full shots with more spin, and sometimes hackers like us do that too.  But in this case, perhaps laying three or four clubs back in order to hit with less spin, rather than more, is actually the preferred (and more fun!) shot.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 12:07:36 PM »
Is that the whole with the turtle back green?  If I recall correctly the ball also gets repelled both left and right as well as long.  I think the correct play is to be short or short left and try to get up and down from the front of the green.  Only a center cut running shot will hold and the risk of going long is probably worse percentagewise than getting up and down from 10-20 yards short of the green.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 03:56:45 PM »
Andrew, it sounds like a great hole.  Why would you have to lay back in order to hit a bouncing shot into the green?  Couldn't you have just chipped a pitching wedge or 9 iron from 75-90 yards?  Without seeing the hole, that sounds like a better strategy than laying back to hit a full middle iron into the green.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 04:13:31 PM »
Andrew, it sounds like a great hole.  Why would you have to lay back in order to hit a bouncing shot into the green?  Couldn't you have just chipped a pitching wedge or 9 iron from 75-90 yards?  Without seeing the hole, that sounds like a better strategy than laying back to hit a full middle iron into the green.
Anthony,  I didn't lay back by choice -I pushed one into the thick timber off the tee and miraculously my ball ricocheted into the center of the fairway leaving 157 yds. Hit a seemingly perfect 9 iron skyhigh to the front edge of the green and watched it bound 20 yds over the green. :( Watched the gentlemen behind us who were well back-190 yds or so rifle their woods in and cozy them up . Lesson learned by us younger guys that with age comes wisdom ! :)  We did have great day despite the high winds and extremely firm,fast  conditions for Chicago this time of year. Never thought I would wish for rain in April but the greens were getting crusty-felt like August.                                                              Jack

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010, 10:48:48 AM »
Sounds like the heavy winds on Friday made a unique case for laying up on a 390 yard par-4. However I would argue that it would be easier to hit that green with a 40mph wind to your back hitting a half SW vs. a 5 iron.

Sounds like you guys had a great time!
H.P.S.

Andrew Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 12:13:20 PM »
I should have noted that the hole was playing straight downwind -- thus Mr. Schmidt's third 350+ yard drive of the day :o into the cross bunker short-left.

Dave -- There is a set of greenside-ish bunkers short-right; they just weren't in play from your angle to the green, or at least not visible from that left trap.

Anthony -- There is an abrupt up-slope leading onto the green.  You can see it at http://www.ravisloecountryclub.com/golf/proto/ravisloecountryclub/course/course_tour.htm.  My early season form meant that a low, hard 9-iron or wedge didn't even cross my mind.  Certainly a possibility, but when trying to land the ball short and chase it up the slope onto the green, I still wonder whether a full swing with, say, a five or six is an easier play.  (For what it's worth, in my few previous plays in calmer yet still firm conditions, I can't recall getting a wedge to hold that green.)

In any case, I love short par 4's on which par is a damn good score, and this is clearly one of them.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 07:27:48 PM »
Andrew:

You've got 9 GCA posts, and your first official GCA outing is with Crisham, Thomas and Shivas. I'm not sure if congratulations or condolences are in order...

Nice post on Ravisloe.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 12:27:13 PM »
Made it out yesterday to Ravisloe for the first time "in-season" since it turned public in 2009. I have to say that as a public entity it is really coming into it's own. It was $49 to walk, the course was rock hard firm and fast, the greens firm and probably stimping at a legit 10. We teed off at roughly noon and didn't have a group in front of us for 8 holes so we played in 3.5 hours. Seems like they see some very early morning weekend play, then calm down until twilight at 3/4pm.

You can't beat the low-key feel of the place right now, as it's essentially golf only, plus a small shop, a bar, and a grill for food.

We did notice there was a group of about 5 guys going from tee to tee pointing and spraying (at first we thought for condo/home locations  :) ;) ) but saw later that they were marking off the tee boxes so that the mowers could "square" them.

And even after reading this thread I forgot that the 16th green runs away from the player and took a little extra club into the wind to roll the ball up....it rolled way over the green :)
H.P.S.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2010, 08:29:26 PM »
Tee shot on 16


16th Green


And one more for good measure
15th Green
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 10:24:02 PM »
Jud and I went down to Ravisloe this afternoon for a twilight round(best bargain in Chicago).  The hole was playing probably 2 clubs down wind and I was completely convinced to leave it short on the approach(or at least not land it on the green).  Unfortunately I left it at the bottom of the fairway/front and was forced with an awkward chip up the hill with only 8 feet of green to work with.  The hole looked so unbelievably innocent but absolutely destroyed me(and cost me the match).

The entire course is fantastic and I would recommend it to anyone.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 10:44:24 PM »
Chris,

You neglected to mention the all-world up & down you made for par at 15 to make 16 interesting!   ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th at Ravisloe -- a case for laying up
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 09:04:22 AM »
The aspect that seems over-looked is the downhill nature of the fairway past a certain  point. 
Quote
If one carries the rise (no more than 200 yards), the land falls down again and then gently back up to a skyline-ish green

Hitting off a downhill lie to an uphill green is no easy task and is often rewarded with over clubbing.

Jack's shot that ricocheted off the trees highlights the myth of added difficulty from trees.

Ran did the same exact thing at Quaker Ridge one day, when his errant drive was well rewarded by the timber.  >:(
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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