[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

In the interest of accuracy, I should clarify what I wrote earlier on Portsalon. During the mid-80s Portsalon went through a number of alterations. The first time I played the course, the 3rd hole was played to a green that was located short of the river and to the right, just behind those two large rock mounds that are visible in Tony's picture. The location of this green and the old Portsalon layout can be seen in Edgar Shrubsole's 1908 book "Picturesque Donegal".
 
When I returned a few months later, the layout had been modified. At this stage, the 3rd hole played to the old 5th green across the river (a little beyond the present 2nd green). I understand that this proved unsuitable, as the 5th green was previously approached from the opposite direction and played as a steeply downhill 195 yds par 3. Playing to the old 5th green from the opposite direction with a long iron or wood proved unsatisfactory, so shortly afterwards, the club reverted back to the old 3rd green short of the river. According to the Portsalon club manager Cathal Toland, this arrangement of playing to the 5th green was just a temporary adjustment in the routing, and was not part of the official golf course plan. It was done to facilitate the continuation of play while works proceeded elsewhere on the course.
 
I also understand that when Pat made his modifications, he was not aware of this temporary arrangement (playing the 3rd hole across the river to the 5th green). I have been reliably informed that he identified the location of the present 2nd green, and a completely new raised green with surrounding bunkers was built by himself. This green is closer to the river than the old 5th green. This is the green that is played to today. I was wrongly under the impression that Pat's only contribution to this hole was the re-location of the tee. It would be a disservice to Pat if he was not given due credit for the present 2nd green.
 
Also, my comment on the course having lost its charm was premature and unfair, considering that I have not played nor seen the course since Pat made his alterations. I wish to withdraw this comment. When I get the opportunity to visit Portsalon and see the alterations in person, I will be happy to give a more informed opinion of the new Portsalon. I do recognise that elements of the the old layout that may have been charming in a quirky way, were also quite dangerous.

Dónal.

[Scott Warren]

#7 at The European Club

Can you talk me through why you are so keen on this hole, Chris?

Agreed. Another hole I didn't get. Must be me. This one seemed out of place with the rest of the course to me. Very difficult hole, though.

Is this the hole with wetland (or stream or whatever) running up the right side, all the way to the green? 

Hi Carl,

That's the hole. I'll never understand how, but it was apparently named as one of the best 100 golf holes in the world.

It's certainly very picturesque.

[Carl Nichols]

#7 at The European Club

Can you talk me through why you are so keen on this hole, Chris?

Agreed. Another hole I didn't get. Must be me. This one seemed out of place with the rest of the course to me. Very difficult hole, though.

Is this the hole with wetland (or stream or whatever) running up the right side, all the way to the green? 

Hi Carl,

That's the hole. I'll never understand how, but it was apparently named as one of the best 100 golf holes in the world.

It's certainly very picturesque.

Hmmm.  I guess I missed something -- I didn't think it was any more picturesque than many of the other holes there, and I didn't think it was a particularly special hole.  There were several holes on the back that I liked a lot more. 

[Scott Warren]

Carl,

The list of people who "must have missed something" when they visited TEC is lengthy. Either that or it's simply not as good as the rankings and PR suggest.

Just this little black duck's opinion, of course.

[Carl Nichols]

Scott:
I think there are several really good stretches at EC; the primary negative, from my perspective, was that it was really narrow in places, which with thick rough and lots of wind could make for a brutal day.  My bottom line is that while I don't think it's #3 on the island or whatever, I think it deserves a pretty high ranking. 

[Scott Warren]

My sample in Ireland is small, but I would give it only 2 or 3 plays on a 10-Round Split with Co. Louth.

The thing I don't get is that if TEC was located during a helicopter search for Ireland's best untouched linksland, why it was so thoroughly bulldozed flat? If the site was so crucial, why alter it so greatly? Why build greens that fight with the natural movement of the surrounding land?

I understand all those things happening in the construction of a golf course, but after travelling the coast of Ireland by helicopter looking for the best possible site? That doesn't make sense to me.

And I understand the greater rainfall Ireland receives leads to naturally thicker, more lush rough, which made me wonder why the corridors were so narrow (and I played it after a local newspaper article had lauded the fact that the course had been made wider and would "play more like St Andrews").

There are some very good holes and it's a great site, Pat Ruddy is very friendly when he greets you etc etc, but to me it is a complete missed opportunity with a few of the worst holes of any of the GB&I Top 100 courses I've played.

[Pat Ruddy]

Whatever has happened to Scott Warren since he visited The European Club last year and went away and wrote on GCA:-
" all told it was a thrilling (if often penal) golf course run by one of the very best men I have met in my golf travels. I was lucky to get a few minutes with Pat Ruddy before we teed off and count it among my favourite memories of my first year playing holf in GB&I."
and
" I like and respect Mr Ruddy's mindset that TEC is his attempt at combining the traditions of links golf with a desire to push forward."

Since then, Scott Warren has become a persistent attacker of The European Club both on GCA and on his own blog site at:  www.theglobalgolfer.blogspot.com which is a testament to his energy in  travelling to play so much golf, spending so much time on GCA and Global Golfer while holding down a day job!   But can such a busy man  so young as 26 know so much and be such a fast learner?

He went around our links with a friend in a howling gale in about 4-hours before rushing off to play Druids Glen before the short  daylight days of October would close in. (To get around 36-holes in October in Ireland in short daylight on two courses some distance from each other is quite a feat!)..    This gave him time to find his ball in our terrible rough  and so carefully study the links from all angles as to be in a position to understand the place and how it was brought to golf and how good or bad every hole may be!  With all due respects the best minds in golf design often give multiples of that time to considering a single hole or a few nuances within a hole...and still could think some more.

Scott Warren now  describes himself as a "Little Black Duck"  in one of his most recent messages on GCA.  Indeed.

It is a matter of fact that this Little Black Duck was merely a nappy-filler back in Australia when I was putting the links of The European Club in place and he had then and has now no idea of what the land looked like at the beginning or how much earth was moved. Yet, in his new mood and mode, he continually  advises the world that I desecrated it with a bull-dozer.   

I have invited him back for a visit, for tea and a chat.  He has declined.  The invitation stands.

Meanwhile,  I remain bemused by his bemusement with statements on The European Club  like : ""The thing I don't get  is..." and "...I must have missed something."  Indeed, once more.

Happily, ALL THE RANKINGS disagree with Scott Warren.  The most recent in Golf World (UK) places The European Club in 43rd place amongst the World's 100 Greatest Courses.   All of these things are open to debate, of course, but they are almost always the consensus of a body of champions, administrators, golf designers and recognised experts.  Can it be that they are all marching in the wrong direction while our Little Black Duck waddles away in the opposite direction ?

Come on, Scott, loosen-up.  Learn to take it as easily as you give it and let's be friends.
Pat Ruddy

[Scott Warren]

I am pleased you have, after almost six months of sending me mean-spirited and threatening emails every time I mention TEC, decided to discuss this online. I'm aware I am not the only person on this site to have received such emails/phone calls from you.

I'll also note, as you try to paint me as someone unfairly trying to discredit you, that I have said many positive things about Druids Glen and TEC - the two designs of yours that I have played.

Whatever has happened to Scott Warren since he visited The European Club last year and went away and wrote on GCA:-
" all told it was a thrilling (if often penal) golf course run by one of the very best men I have met in my golf travels. I was lucky to get a few minutes with Pat Ruddy before we teed off and count it among my favourite memories of my first year playing holf in GB&I."
and
" I like and respect Mr Ruddy's mindset that TEC is his attempt at combining the traditions of links golf with a desire to push forward."

Nothing there is contradictory to anything I have written since.

My only lament is that our correspondence since - always initiated by you - has been so at odds with the gentleman I met that morning.

He went around our links with a friend in a howling gale in about 4-hours before rushing off to play Druids Glen before the short  daylight days of October would close in. (To get around 36-holes in October in Ireland in short daylight on two courses some distance from each other is quite a feat!). This gave him time to find his ball in our terrible rough  and so carefully study the links from all angles as to be in a position to understand the place and how it was brought to golf and how good or bad every hole may be!  With all due respects the best minds in golf design often give multiples of that time to considering a single hole or a few nuances within a hole...and still could think some more.

I'm not sure 4hrs as a two-ball is terribly quick. And Druids and TEC are a 20-minute drive apart. Also, BST was still in effect, so it wasn't getting dark that early.

It is a matter of fact that this Little Black Duck was merely a nappy-filler back in Australia when I was putting the links of The European Club in place and he had then and has now no idea of what the land looked like at the beginning or how much earth was moved. Yet, in his new mood and mode, he continually  advises the world that I desecrated it with a bull-dozer.

I never said it was "desecrated". Don't put words in my mouth.

I would be very interested to see pre-construction photos. If minimal dirt has been moved it would be the first time I have seen almost perfectly flat plains between such tall, dramatic dunes.

For example:



 

I have invited him back for a visit, for tea and a chat.  He has declined.  The invitation stands.

This is disappointing. You're clearly trying to make me look unreasonable. I explained very clearly to you that I appreciated the invitation but would not be returning to Ireland while I am in the UK. I have in the past, even after you began bullying me via email, suggested likewise that when you are next in London I would love to host you at Deal, or just share a pint.

Happily, ALL THE RANKINGS disagree with Scott Warren.  The most recent in Golf World (UK) places The European Club in 43rd place amongst the World's 100 Greatest Courses.   All of these things are open to debate, of course, but they are almost always the consensus of a body of champions, administrators, golf designers and recognised experts.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is all I have ever suggested when you have emailed me. I have also raised particular questions with you about your links, in the hope that you will enlighten me as to what I am missing, and you have repeatedly refused to answer any of them.

It's disappointing that you are so quick to attack when your course is mentioned, so quick to rattle off the most recent course ratings, but so reluctant to discuss its merits themselves.

Learn to take it as easily as you give it and let's be friends.

This comes less than 12 hours after you threatened me with legal action.

[Pat Ruddy]

Scott,

You are one temperamental and self-opinionated young man.

You have no hesitation in attacking other people as in this post of yours:
"English footballer Ashley Cole (married to singer Cheryl Cole) seems to be chasing Tiger's record. 5 slags and counting!"
Not nice from a nice person.   But everyone's life is your domain, you think.

Read back on our corresondence.  YOU CAST STONES 1, 3, 5, 7, 9.  I played the EVENS in protest and self-defence.   Obviousy, if you persist in stalking me I will consider all legitimate means of self-defence including law should you over-step the mark as I have worked hard over many decades to produce good golf courses and my reputation isn't open for you to kick about on any terms you choose.

You speak of bullying.  Yet, in one of your letters you threatened as follows regarding our correspondence: ".... I would consider any=

future correspondence between us as public and would post it in whichever forum or outlet was relavent. I was serious."
Is that a threat?   You think that the "power of the press" will subdue those you deride and goad?   As a former press man myself I am used to that heat.

Amazingly, when it came to my attempt to reply to your attacking comments on The European Club (all of the other venues coming free of attack as far as I have read) on your own blog "theglobalgolfer" you pleaded for the cloak of darkness and refused to publish:  "My name is not listed on the site, so I don't want it in the comment."

So, you want to kick me and my work about in public but remain anonymous.  Sorry!   5-irons at dawn in mid-fairway!

Regarding the pictures you have published of holes 8 and 10 at The European Club to demonstrate your point on flatness.  These are dishonest.  Angles matter in golf pictures and I hope that Aidan Bradley might have a picture of Hole 8 from behind to show how different that hole is when viewed in total and shows your smart editing in full light.

My belief is that you have been stalking me and my club since last October.  I ask you to desist and go on with looking at the 30,000ish
other courses on the planet.  Maybe you just might find one a little less well designed than The European Club .... but I'm not holding my breath. 

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

If you had presented the "I consider all future correspondence between us as public" in context, it would have been clear I was referring to this website, not "the power of the press". I'm not on this website as a journalist, just as a guy who likes exploring golf courses and chatting about them later.

I fear the disconnect is that when I say something negative about TEC, you read it as a personal attack on Pat Ruddy. That isn't the case. Strangely, you never emailed to say thanks for the compliment when I raved about the stretch of 12-15 at TEC (or praised the par threes), or heaped praise on the likes on 4, 7, 13 and 15 at Druids Glen.

The same is true of the other GCA members you've abused via email and phone calls.

I have never attacked your integrity, ability or personality on this site, on my website or in our emails despite you repeatedly attacking me, not to mention repeatedly threatening to sue me.

I've no interest getting into a character assassination competition with you. I am here to talk about golf courses. You're welcome at your leisure to address the criticisms I've made of the golf course, because your golf course is the only thing I have critiqued.

PS - My pics are of the 8th and 11th, not the 10th.

[Aidan Bradley]

In all fairness Scott, this fairway doesn't look very flat to me............

[Scott Warren]

Aidan,

The driving zone and 90% of the fairway of the hole is not pictured in your photo. The area from which almost all golfers will play their second shot/approach is pictured in my photo above - almost perfectly flat.

Yes, between many of the very flat fairway playing surfaces are areas of great undulation, which only serves to draw further attention to the great volume of soil that was obviously moved during connstruction.

That neck of fairway tumbling down the hill was also far narrower last October.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

You say ‘You are one temperamental and self-opinionated young man’ when referring to Scott
then go on to say ‘You have no hesitation in attacking other people as in this post of yours’. Plus a few more comments

Rather strong stuff, but I will agree he can be a pain in the backside at times.

May I suggest you just ignore him and continue to fight the good fight. Let him have his fun, he can’t hurt you. I will say in his defence that at times he has posted some interesting comments but not when trying to score cheap points.

I wish you well

Melvyn 

[Martin Toal]

Gentlemen

As the thread starter, I am sorry things have descended into this tenor of debate. That was certainly not my intention.

Clearly people have differing views on different courses and holes. I have never played The European, but would love to do so, so I cannot comment on the specifics, but it looks good to the camera.

It seems that enough people who know what they are talking about like it enough for it to be generally highly rated in Irish and GB and I polls, so that is enough for me.

[Carl Nichols]

Mr. Ruddy:
It would be interesting (to me, at least) to hear your thoughts on two points raised in this thread -- (1) whether you did a significant amount of flattening out of fairways, and if so, why; and (2) the sense that several holes are quite narrow.
Thanks in advance,
Carl

[Aidan Bradley]

Several years ago I had the good fortune to photograph The European Club. My only regret was that I did not have the opportunity to play the course (time constraints). As a photographer, it was a dream shoot. It was one of the most delightful palettes I have ever had the opportunity to work with.

On a subsequent trip I met with Pat in a hotel off Grafton Street where we enjoy a cup of tea and a cholestral laden delightful desert. I found him to be wonderfully engaging, witty, and intellectual.  His fervour and passion for the game and his course was palpable. How many of you will ever have the opportunity to create your dream and share it with like minded souls? If Mr Ruddy on occasion may seem a  energetic in his defense of his creation please ask yourselves how you would respond to such criticism.

Not having played the course and being somewhat of a high handicapper when it comes to comprehending the fine nuances of golf course architecture, my contributions to this thread presently will be limited to my visual interpretation thereof. I hope that if you get a chance to play golf in Ireland, you will find a little time in your schedule to trundle on down to Brittas Bay and experience the challenge and adventure of The European Club. I encourage you to embrace the experience and expect you will find far more positives than negatives. I know you will not be disappointed. I am a attaching some visual porn in an attempt to entice you.......

Aidan.

[Brian Phillips]

Pat,

We have had a couple of emails between each other over the years and I enjoy reading your passionate posts.

Please do not take this the wrong way but even in Aidan's photographs the fairways do look shaped when compared to the surrounding dunes.  If you did shape these areas was it to make it more playable?

All the best,

Brian

[Bill Brightly]

Any topic that gets Aiden to post pictures is destined to be a great GCA thread!

[Aidan Bradley]

Bill,

Thank you for the kind words. Where do I send the check?

Aidan.

[Matthew Mollica]

Please do not take this the wrong way but even in Aidan's photographs the fairways do look shaped when compared to the surrounding dunes.  If you did shape these areas was it to make it more playable?

I appreciate that the flat areas between dunes look very flat, yet this might not be articifial.
Those sorts of landforms can occur naturally, as the picture below illustrates.



It would be good to get Pat's answer on how much dirt was moved at TEC & why.

MM

[JNC Lyon]

I agree with Brian Phillips, the fairway at the European Club look heavily shaped.  In fact, they appear to be completely at odds with the surrounding dunescape. 

Pat Ruddy, I think we would all love to see the photos of the site prior to construction.  I think very few of us visited the site for the European Club before the course was built, so enlighten us!

I have a couple of notes on your comments about TEC.  You seem to be very proud of the 'terrible rough' at your golf club.  I must ask, how much skill and creativity does it take to grow long grass on the sides of the fairway?  Long rough, more than any other feature, makes golf a misery to play and stifles options for the golfers.  Long rough may make it difficult for the low-handicapper and make him declare the course 'a great test.'  However, these low handicappers are only a very small percentage of the golfing population.  Golf is not a game that is meant to punish people.  It is a game that people can play to have fun and escape their daily lives.  Furthermore, the challenge of golf should be mental in nature.  Long rough, narrow fairways, and championship tees amount to nothing more than physical brutality.

You also seem to be very concerned with where the European Club places in the rankings.  You say things like "all the rankings disagree with Scott Warren."  After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion.  Anyone who takes golf course architecture puts very little stock in what rankings say.  Golf courses are not built to be ranked.  They are built to be played and enjoyed.  The 'rankings' mentality has destroyed dozens of the world's greatest golf courses.  My home club in the states, Oak Hill, is but one example of a course that has been maimed to keep up its reputation among 'the rankings.' 

If we are going to discuss the European Club, let's discuss architecture.  How much land did you move to build the golf course?  What did the property look like before the golf course was built?  What was reasoning behind constructing flat fairways when undulating fairways are the very heart and soul of links golf?

[Jack_Marr]

Who cares whether man or God moved earth?

Would anyone think less or more of the course if they found that it lies as it was found?

I've not played the European Club in a long time, but it still ranks as one of my favourites.

My favourite hole at Carne Golf Links is the 17th, possibly the hole that required most earth to be moved.

[Martin Toal]

After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion. 

Ironically, that is a rather confident opinion (however accurate it may be) that you are offering, especially if cultivated after a whole 4 months playing here.

[JNC Lyon]

After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion.

Ironically, that is a rather confident opinion (however accurate it may be) that you are offering, especially if cultivated after a whole 4 months playing here.

Luckily, I've been able to play some great golf courses since I have been here, several of which have been ranked in the top 100 on these lists.  One of my favorites since I've been here is Huntercombe, an absolute gem of a golf course in Oxfordshire.  It is second only to Woking among my favorite inland courses in England.  I prefer Huntercombe to courses like Swinley Forest, Addington, Worplesdon. and West Hill.  However, none of these lists that Pat Ruddy rrefers to so religiously include Huntercombe. Now, I am not going to go down the list and say which courses should be ranked where.   I simply haven't played enough golf courses to do that.  However, I will say that any list that does not include Huntercombe and places Woking at 77th loses all credibility in my mind.

I know that many people disagree with me about these rankings.  Many of these people are golfers whose opinion I value a great deal.  The point is, ratings and rankings are SUBJECTIVE.  Just because rankings say a course is great does not mean a course is great.  Furthermore, golf courses should NOT be built for the rankings.

[JNC Lyon]

Jack Marr,

I think many of us care whether or not man's hand created a feature.  This is particularly true in links golf, which is meant to be the most sacred and natural type of golf and golf course architecture.  The joy of links golf comes from rumpled fairways and wild features that create variety, randomness, and excitment.  If man bulldozes these features, it is a travesty.

I believe that man can move earth in a golf course.  However, man's hand should not be at odds with the natural surroundings.  From those photos, it seems like the fairway contours at odds with the natural surroundings.  That is why I want to see the pre-sight photos.  Did the land actually look like that?  Or was great links land ruined?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()