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Kyle Harris

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2010, 10:34:47 PM »
Kyle
The majority of Ross plans were drawn by Walter Johnson; the majority of Flynn plans were drawn by Nichols; other architects had similar arrangements with draftsmen.

Johnson and Nichols' drawings are fairly easy to identify, but are you able to determine among the other drawings which is Flynn, Wilson, Ross, Hatch, McGovern, Smith, Travis, Park or some anonymous draftsmen?

You're way above me in terms of that knowledge Tom. I just pointed out a difference I noticed in the template. I've seen one Park drawing in my life and it's demonstratively different than anything I've seen from Flynn or Ross.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2010, 06:18:42 AM »
How were you able to date the Pocono drawings?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2010, 08:37:45 AM »
I've spent a great many hours studying just a couple of Flynn's drawings for some personal projects. There are quite a few differences between them. There are some "telltale" signs as well, but none of them are set in stone. It's probably a fool's errand to try and identify courses based on subtle differences in drawings.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2010, 01:26:42 PM »
With apologies to the Tufts archives (the images below are theirs) I decided that it would be fair use to repost some of their images here. If it is not legal please let me know.


To get an idea of the range of styles that one designer may end up using (even when the designs are from his own pen), I submit the following drawings/sketches/notes made by Donald Ross.









































Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Mike Cirba

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2010, 02:05:37 PM »
Charlie,

Awesome collection of drawings!   Thanks for posting them.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2010, 10:18:43 PM »
Charlie
Do you think those are all drawn by the man himself?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2010, 11:40:38 PM »
Tom,

Probably not all were drawn by Ross, but remember that what we're looking at are not actual "plans". They are schematics; meant to be a shorthand with which the designer can communicate his ideas. I am pretty sure of that because there is very little elevation or grading data. In other words, there's no reason for a draftsman to create the drawings that are meant to tell him what to create.

Ross was a golf course designer/architect, not a draftsman or a graphic designer. It wouldn't surprise me if his style bounced around a lot. The same would go for any GCA. As long as he got his point across, there was no reason to get formal training and solidify his drawing style.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ed Oden

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2010, 12:11:25 AM »
Tom MacWood, in your first post on this thread you made this bold statement:

I think I may have just solved you mystery - those drawings are Ross's.

Since then, you have added a whole bunch of posts all of which suggest that no one has proof the drawings are Flynn's.  But I don't see any where you support your claim that they are Ross's.  I have no dog in this fight and don't care one way or the other.  But it seems to me it would be more productive if you simply explained why you think the drawings are Ross's rather than insinuating that they are not Flynn's.

Ed

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2010, 09:26:22 PM »
I found this recently in the NY Tribune while researching Pennsylvania golf course history.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 01:04:39 PM »
Here is a similar article that appeared on the same date in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

Mike Cirba

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2010, 02:11:18 PM »
Tom,

Those are terrific finds!   Very nice job.  

There is certainly some odd irony in finding that 9 holes of Pocono Manor seem to have been designed by H.H. Barker, with the other nine designed by William Flynn.  ;)  ;D


You also may have found after all this time who indeed was responsible for the Mother of all punchbowls!

« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 03:13:15 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2010, 08:22:26 PM »
Mike
There are more than a few ironies with discovery Barker designed the first nine at Pocono Manor. Barker & Flynn worked on the same course (at different times) more than once: PM, Columbia, Atlantic City, and possibly Merion.

Mike Cirba

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2010, 10:30:14 PM »
Tom,

The nine Barker designed at Pocono Manor is unusual but quite interesting, and contrasts interestingly with the Flynn nine.

If your travels ever make it to eastern PA I'd be very happy to tour it with you.

TEPaul

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2010, 11:15:03 AM »
Mike:

Barker and Flynn may've worked on some of the same courses but I would definitely underscore your paranthetical remark above---eg AT DIFFERENT TIMES.

When William Flynn was basically just getting going in golf course architecture Herbert Barker had left America, never to return again.

It seems to be a bit tricky to pin down in detail what Flynn specifically did on some courses and some projects, in the teens and even on a few projects when he hooked up with Howard Toomey in the early 20s (ie Philmont North). Their company was structured in a rather interesting way for that time----eg a design arm and a construction arm even if it was one and the same company. They also promoted themselves as economic efficiency experts in their course planning and building applications-----viz. it was made very clear to a client what exactly he was paying for in a very itemized way. There is very little question in my mind that this was a dedicated MO that emanated out of Flynn's time and tasks with Wilson at Merion. Wilson as well was virtually fixated on this type of economic efficiency concentration in all things to do with golf----planning, construction and particularly agronomy and its development.

It's a bit mysterious but in the early 20s Alison made some proposal to Flynn that they hook up somehow. It (Alison's "proposal" to Flynn) was only mentioned amongst Piper and Oakley and H. Wilson, so I really don't know what the particulars of it were, even though I can see that ultimately P&O and Wilson did not think it was a particularly good idea for Flynn. It would not surprise me if it was not something that emanated out of the final architectural hole planning and redesigning of those last four hole at Pine Valley around 1921, in which both Alison and Flynn were involved even if perhaps at slightly different times. It may've had as much to do with agronomic development as with design and construction.

Don't forget, at that very time, the Wilson brothers and Toomey and Flynn and Piper and Oakley et al (Marshall, Harban etc) were on the cutting edge of promoting the so-called "vegetative process" (bent) for American golf. That in and of itself was beginning to get a whole lot of attention even prompting Harry Colt who had not even been in America for over eight years to write Wilson asking him to please send over to England all the research material done on this idea.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 11:24:32 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2010, 12:41:02 PM »

When William Flynn was basically just getting going in golf course architecture Herbert Barker had left America, never to return again.


Actually there is some evidence he did return. Ironically Barker worked with Colt too.

TEPaul

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2010, 07:50:14 PM »
"Actually there is some evidence he did return. Ironically Barker worked with Colt too."




Uh huh.

I hope the evidence is a bit more credible than your evidence that Barker designed Merion East one day in Dec. 1910 during a train trip from New York to Georgia or that Willie Campbell designed the original Myopia nine before he even arrived in America.  
 
 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 07:53:58 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2010, 08:12:03 PM »
"Actually there is some evidence he did return. Ironically Barker worked with Colt too."

Uh huh.

I hope the evidence is a bit more credible than your evidence that Barker designed Merion East one day in Dec. 1910 during a train trip from New York to Georgia or that Willie Campbell designed the original Myopia nine before he even arrived in America.  
 
 


TEP
Regarding Barker's return I'd say there is some evidence, but the evidence is not conclusive. On the scale of credibility with Crump's brain blowing due to a tooth ache and 19-year old William Flynn designing Heartwellville being on the low side and Barker designing Pocono Manor and Wilson traveling overseas in 1912 on the high end I'd put Barker's return smack dab in the middle.

TEPaul

Re: The History of Pocono Manor
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2010, 08:09:06 AM »
"TEP
Regarding Barker's return I'd say there is some evidence, but the evidence is not conclusive. On the scale of credibility with Crump's brain blowing due to a tooth ache and 19-year old William Flynn designing Heartwellville being on the low side and Barker designing Pocono Manor and Wilson traveling overseas in 1912 on the high end I'd put Barker's return smack dab in the middle."



Tom MacWood:


Thanks for that explanation. With that analytical MO no wonder your contentions on here are generally an opinion of one.