[Chip Gaskins]

I was lucky enough to spend some time at Hidden Creek over the weekend and I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

It is always fun to see a player, musician, or team when they are at the top of their game.  Whether it was Jordan in his days in Chicago or Zeppelin in the early 70s or to see Hidden Creek as Coore and Crenshaw were really getting in into their groove.  What a real treat!

I suppose when you combine an owner who knows what he wants and knows good golf......with a design team on a interesting, sandy piece of soil......with a general manger and superintendent that are some of the best in the business you end up with a world class product.  Hidden Creek is really that good.  I have played seven of C&Cs courses and Hidden Creek is one of the best.  Probably second best after Sand Hills in my opinion.

From a maintenance standpoint all the firm and fast lovers would have the time of their life.  Tom Paul would be saying "perfect maintenance meld".  You know that sound a pool table makes or maybe the hood of your car...that's what the ball sounds like hitting the green.  It took me a dozen holes to start hitting the ball 20 yards short of the pin.

A few interesting observations:

- Lots of "chocolate drops" scattered about drawing great separation between hazards and fairway


- Greens that very much reminded me of Perry Maxwell at Crystal Downs or Prairie Dunes




- Several times it felt like I should have been out side of London versus New Jersey


Unkempt waste area list Pine Valley


- Width off the tee that would make Mackenzie proud


An absolutely delightful short par 3 that seems to be a lost art


- Bunkers that look like they have been there for decades


- A routing that made us play in every possible wind condition


Kudos to Roger Hansen, Ian Dalzell, Jeff Riggs and the rest of the team at Hidden Creek.  What a world class place you have!

[Dean Paolucci]

As I and many others on the site have said "can't agree with you more"!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Chip,

Did you find the creek?


Amazing what C&C did with essentially a flat piece of land. It was a job they initially didn't want to do.

[Joe Bausch]

CG, I just knew you would love the place.

Here is a thread w/ more photos of C2:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37919.0/

Yes, I took them. 

[David_Elvins]

Amazing what C&C did with essentially a flat piece of land.

IMO this seems to be one of the most commonly perpetuated myths on GolfClubAtlas.

The land is some of the most perfectly undulating land for golf I have seen.  

I wonder if the flat land myth is perpetuated to account for the fact it is probably C&C's worst course (although still a very good course and a very very good club)?

[Chip Gaskins]

I wonder if the flat land myth is perpetuated to account for the fact it is probably C&C's worst course (although still a very good course and a very very good club)?

Steve-

Really...worst course?  Did we play the same course?

I would rank the C&C courses I have played like this:

1) Sand Hills
2) Bandon Trails
3) Hidden Creek
4) Colorado Golf Club
5) Sugarloaf Mt
6) Austin Golf Club
7) Barton Creek
and in a few week Friars Head

If that is C&C's worst course they can retire now and be proud!

[Carl Nichols]

I suppose when you combine an owner who knows what he wants and knows good golf......with a design team on a interesting, sandy piece of soil......with a general manger and superintendent that are some of the best in the business you end up with a world class product. 

I've never been there, but I always thought those inputs would result in something great -- but the course doesn't do that well in the rankings, even the Unofficial GCA ranking. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

I said "essentially." I didn't say "totally." I realize that there is some elevation there( 50' of elevation change is a big thing in NJ) and that some holes present a forced carry- the par3 4th for example.

[David_Elvins]

Chip,

I should have put a disclaimer on that.  It is the only C&C course I have seen - a respectable fellow on here had the opinion it was C&C's worst course.  Maybe it is not, but I have always been intrgiued as to why such a great site was described as an average site.  

Don't get me wrong, I think the place is very cool and the 2nd green is my favorite green in the world.

David,

I said "essentially." I didn't say "totally." I realize that there is some elevation there( 50' of elevation change is a big thing in NJ) and that some holes present a forced carry- the par3 4th for example.

Steve,

Arguing on degrees of flatness is one of those arguments on GCA that can take 16 pages without resolution so I don't intend to dispute the definition of the word totally or essentially.  I do however think that, 'broadly speaking' there is a common theme on GolfClubAtlas that C&C did a good job on a poor site.  My impression was that they did an OK job on a very good site.  The site compares favourably to the site at courses such as Garden City, Kingston Heath, Commonwealth or Metropolitan which I would consider better courses.  


When Carl Nichols writes, "I've never been there, but I always thought those inputs would result in something great -- but the course doesn't do that well in the rankings, even the Unofficial GCA ranking" I think he is right, it is surprising that the course isn't ranked higher, given the input factors.  IMO the weakest link is the architecture.  

[Michael Taylor]

Thanks for the photos Chip, and for the link to even more pics Joe.

HC looks like a great golf course, and that short par 3 looks like a beauty!

Pup

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Elvins,

I agree, I don't find Hidden Creek to be a flat golf course by any measure.

Chip,

One of the keys to Hidden Creek is Roger Hansen's understanding of golf and his desire to see that the course is as firm and fast as Mother Nature permits.

The first time I played the golf course, when I walked off the 18th green, I wanted to go straight to the 1st tee.

It's just a fun, yet challenging golf course.

And, width plays a significant role.

My only regret is that I live two hours away.

It's the type of course you can play every day and never tire of it..

Roger, Ian, Jeff and the entire staff do a great job and that doesn't happen by accident.

[Dan Herrmann]

I love Hidden Creek.  I also loved Bandon Trails.

Did anybody but me see a fair amount of similarity between the two (not including BT's dunes holes)?

There's certainly no issue with any similarity - just wondering if anybody else sees what I (think) I do.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Chip,

The quote about the "worst" C&C course is attributable to David Elvins, not me.

I'm a big fan of HC.

I haven't played Colorado GC. How would you compare that course to HC?

[Tim Nugent]

When making blanket statements like 'this course is the best, worst or better than or worse than', it would be helpful for some background as to why you think this.  For example, I would be fine if you didn't like the chocolate drops, the bunkers at the begining of fairways, the clubhouse dominating the backdrop for 9 and 18 etc., just please expound otherwise there is no basis for the statement.

[C. Squier]

Hidden Creek is an absolute gem of a golf course.  I can't say enough about it, except the snake that nearly ate me on #1. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Chip

HC is a gem of a course (particualrarly it's greens) and I really liked what I saw there.

I would suggest it's topography is quite flat - yes it has some topography changes but they aren't exactly severe or wild either.

[David_Elvins]

Chip  (and others that have played it a bit),

What are your thoughts on the playability of the 4th, 11th and 14th (Par 3s). 

Does 4 only really work to a back pin position?   Is the target area and pinnable area on 11 too small, does the front to back slope of the 14th green make it too hard a target to hit?  What were your experiences playing these holes?

[Dan Herrmann]

BTW, Hidden Creek has the best fescue rough I've ever seen. 

[John Sabino]

Chip - nice observations, although you failed to mention the best hole on the course - the short par four 8th, a fabulous risk/reward hole that lets the mortal golfer think about an eagle every now and again.

The new tees put in on 16 and 17 also make it a better course. Sixteen is an impossibly long par four into the prevailing wind so adding forward tees there really helps. 17 is a shortish par 5 and adding in new back tees gives more options to make it longer depending upon the wind.

John

[Ian Dalzell]

Chip
Thank you for your kind words about Ben and Bill's work out here at Hidden Creek.  It certainly is nice to be able to work here and see how the course changes dramatically from season to season based on the firmness of the turf and the growth of the fescue roughs.

The golf course just went through a full aeration and in the coming weeks will absolutely come ALIVE with the fescues popping, and green firming up once they heal.  As the bent grass changes color with growth it provides great contrast to the roughs and we are hopeful that we return to the great multi-colored look of the greens.

We are not in the least offended that we are not higher in the rankings . . . with over 18,000 courses around the country and some very talented architects on wonderful pieces of property, it just shows the depth of great golf out there.  We are simply appreciative to be acknowledged.  At the end of the day Bill & Ben were asked to build a great members course, and in our opinion they exceeded our expectations.

Steve Shaffer - it's not entirely correect that initially they didn't want to do the work here.  The truth is they were offered other pieces of property over a several year span which they politely declined, but when they came here they said yes, looks good, but Bill wanted to spend a little more time on property to look further.  Ben went home, Bill stayed, walked around the woods for the better part of 3-weeks, emerging one day (imagine long beard, weary and tired  ) and said, Yes, I think we can do a nice job for you here.

Have a great day guys, and Chip, thanks again.

Ian

[PCCraig]

Wow...those are some great photos of what looks to be a fantastic course.

Just from the photos its hard to think Hidden Creek is "worse" than the Warren Course at ND (which I like alot actually).

[JESII]

Good job Ian.

Nice thread Chip, I agree very much on the quality of Hidden Creek.

I've played 5 or 8 times and really like it but it's the only course by Coore and Crenshaw that I've played. I occasionally wonder if I will be disappointed when I get to some of their other more highly regarded courses due to the fact that I like Hidden Creek so much...and I haven't even played it yet when the greens were as firm as you describe...it's been the one aspect missing for me...bad timing I guess because they clearly aim for firm and fast.

One question though...did it really take you a dozen holes to start bouncing it into the greens...

[Michael Ryan]

Put me in the group of die-hard lovers of Hidden Creek.  In addition, I got to meet Chip on Saturday as I was part of a group that tackled HC this weekend.  I have previously played HC in one off's, but played it for multiple rounds this past weekend.  The options for hole locations that those greens present can really change the personality of a hole as we saw on the 2nd hole in particular.  A front pin really affects your club decision on the tee, as getting a drive too far down the fairway will leave you with a 'tweener yardage with a wedge.  My only regret from this past weekend is we played 3 rounds with the exact same wind, which was pretty stern and opposite of prevailing.  The long par 3's (4 and 14) played into the wind...the redan features of the 4th hole don't mean much when you have a 3 wood from 222 and it's not enough!

It's an absolute treat and Ian and his staff make everyone feel at home.

Mike

[Wyatt Halliday]

Thanks Chip & Ian. I somehow missed Mike's previous HC thread and glad this popped up.

Dan,
I'm familiar with previous statements around here that lament the similarities in Coore & Crenshaw's work. What about Hidden Creek reminded you of Bandon Trails? (Disclaimer: I've played Bandon Trails but not Hidden Creek)

[Anthony Gray]

  Can't wait.

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