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Jeff_Mingay

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... I can't think of one?

Anyone?
jeffmingay.com

Will MacEwen

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 09:53:28 PM »

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2010, 09:54:26 PM »
LOL.

The Old Course! Both 9s actually.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2010, 09:54:47 PM »
Of course, as soon as I posted this thread, Pacific Dunes popped into my head. #5 is the only par 3 on the front nine, right?

Any others?
jeffmingay.com

Will MacEwen

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 09:56:21 PM »
Of course, as soon as I posted this thread, Pacific Dunes popped into my head. #5 is the only par 3 on the front nine, right?

Any others?

That's the one.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 09:57:31 PM »
F. I can't believe I overlooked the Old Course. Guess my brain was in "North American golf mode" (unfortunately).

And, I was posting about Pacific Dunes simultaneous with Will  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 09:57:53 PM »
Jeff:

Kingston Heath - front nine
Garden City - front nine
The National Golf Links of America - back nine

Need I go on?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2010, 09:59:10 PM »
... Kapalua (Plantation) - back nine ...

Will MacEwen

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 09:59:22 PM »
Jeff:

Kingston Heath - front nine
Garden City - front nine
The National Golf Links of America - back nine

Need I go on?

The guy is obviously new to GCA - we can stop piling on now.

John Moore II

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2010, 09:59:41 PM »
I think this question comes from so many courses being a product of uniformity. People want par 72, they want 4 par 3's, 4 par 5's and 10 par 4's. Its hard to get people to get away from that mindset. So designers tend to just gravitate towards that when building. You will never convince me that 4-10-4 is the best routing for every site. Why not 7-4-7? Or 3-14-1? Those are possibilities. You just never see it. But I can't contribute more than that to this discussion, I have played very few courses that were not 4-10-4, and none come to mind off hand that didn't have at least 2 par 3's on each nine.

John Moore II

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 10:00:30 PM »
Jeff:

Kingston Heath - front nine
Garden City - front nine
The National Golf Links of America - back nine

Need I go on?

The guy is obviously new to GCA - we can stop piling on now.

You do see that Jeff has 3100 posts don't you?  ;)

Will MacEwen

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 10:01:32 PM »
Jeff:

Kingston Heath - front nine
Garden City - front nine
The National Golf Links of America - back nine

Need I go on?

The guy is obviously new to GCA - we can stop piling on now.

You do see that Jeff has 3100 posts don't you?  ;)

Just giving him the gears. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 10:03:08 PM by Will MacEwen »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2010, 10:08:08 PM »
Personally I'm getting pretty tired of the same old thing.  How many pieces of property are perfectly suited to 4 par 3s, 4 par 5s and 10 par 4s?  Any course which differs from the norm gets an extra bump in my book....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ian Andrew

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2010, 10:08:48 PM »
County Louth

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2010, 10:09:45 PM »
I think this question comes from so many courses being a product of uniformity. People want par 72, they want 4 par 3's, 4 par 5's and 10 par 4's. Its hard to get people to get away from that mindset. So designers tend to just gravitate towards that when building. You will never convince me that 4-10-4 is the best routing for every site. Why not 7-4-7? Or 3-14-1? Those are possibilities. You just never see it.

John K:  You are right, most architects would not be caught dead without two par-3's on each side.  That's why it's interesting that there are several REALLY good courses which break that rule.

I've even seen a "3-14-1" course that was really good ... Saunton (East), in England.  Eight par-4's on the front, and only a single par-3 (the great 5th); then three more par-4's to start the back side, before you get to two threes and a five in the closing stretch.

Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2010, 10:18:29 PM »
It is not to be confused with a great course, but Indiana University's back nine is 8 par 4s with a single par three in the middle...

John Moore II

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2010, 10:20:53 PM »
I think this question comes from so many courses being a product of uniformity. People want par 72, they want 4 par 3's, 4 par 5's and 10 par 4's. Its hard to get people to get away from that mindset. So designers tend to just gravitate towards that when building. You will never convince me that 4-10-4 is the best routing for every site. Why not 7-4-7? Or 3-14-1? Those are possibilities. You just never see it.

John K:  You are right, most architects would not be caught dead without two par-3's on each side.  That's why it's interesting that there are several REALLY good courses which break that rule.

I've even seen a "3-14-1" course that was really good ... Saunton (East), in England.  Eight par-4's on the front, and only a single par-3 (the great 5th); then three more par-4's to start the back side, before you get to two threes and a five in the closing stretch.

But Tom, how many of these courses you see with the "odd" (not 4-10-4) hole pars have been built recently. Certainly your work at Pacific Dunes and C&C at Kapalua are recent designs, but the rest seem to be very old designs. I had a thought about this while watching the Masters. How much did ANGC and its 'typical' 4-10-4 set-up with 2 par 3's and 2 par 5's on each side affect guys like RTJ when they built courses after Mr. Palmer's Masters win in 1958, or even before that because of ANGC being well known among golfers?  I think that has done a lot to cause courses to be built such as they are in the typical fashion we see today.

Oh, and by the way Tom, I should have known that you would have seen a course with just about any configuration of numbers I would have thought to throw out.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2010, 10:25:01 PM »
Ok... some here are giving me "the gears"  ;D

But, the quick responses received speak to why I posted this thread... to get a comprehensive list together relative to a redesign project where I have three par 3s on one side, and one on the other. No doubt there will be questions from the "powers that be" at this particular club. 

Of course, I could have done the research myself - and, sad to say at this late hour tonight, I overlooked a number of my favourite courses (without thinking!), including Garden City, NGLA, Pacific Dunes, Kapalua... whoops.

I was very confident the "brain power" here would potentially offer some others... thanks, much.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2010, 10:37:55 PM »
Again, the quick responses here are great (thanks again).

When I'm routing a new course and/or redesigning an existing layout, I never think about anything aside from stringing the best holes together. In this particular redesign case, noted above, there's simply a "par 72, two par 5s/two par 3s per nine mindset" at play, which I'll need to break in the process of presenting my plan.

Thanks again for the comments provided; I look forward to more on this subject.

Cheers,
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2010, 10:39:55 PM »

But Tom, how many of these courses you see with the "odd" (not 4-10-4) hole pars have been built recently. Certainly your work at Pacific Dunes and C&C at Kapalua are recent designs, but the rest seem to be very old designs. I had a thought about this while watching the Masters. How much did ANGC and its 'typical' 4-10-4 set-up with 2 par 3's and 2 par 5's on each side affect guys like RTJ when they built courses after Mr. Palmer's Masters win in 1958, or even before that because of ANGC being well known among golfers?  I think that has done a lot to cause courses to be built such as they are in the typical fashion we see today.


John:

I agree with you that most of these boilerplate par-72 designs are descended from Augusta National.  I read several articles about Augusta growing up which praised the fact that you never played two consecutive par-4's on the front nine and it was so evenly balanced ... completely omitting that the course really comes into its own at the start of the back nine, when you play 10 and 11 back to back ...

I do not know how many designers there are out there, besides myself and Bill Coore, who really don't care much about whether the two nines are evenly balanced.  Lots of guys SAY they don't care, but I can't think of many who put anything into the ground that way.  For that matter, I must admit that I have yet to build a course that has less than four par-3 holes, though I've built five on several occasions.

However, after thinking about it, I remember now that High Pointe only has the one par-3 on the front (#4), and Rock Creek waits as long as any course I've ever seen for its first par-3, at #8.  Both of those courses have [or had] three one-shotters on the back nine.  And Pacific Dunes has four!


Jeff:  Good luck breaking with convention ... it's that much harder at an existing club.

Jason Connor

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Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2010, 10:41:17 PM »
LOL.

The Old Course! Both 9s actually.

Beat me to it!  First thing that came to mind when I saw the subject line.

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2010, 10:46:50 PM »
Geez... I really feel like an idiot, now!

High Pointe, too... another of my favourite courses, with one par-3 on the front nine. See, when the holes are legit. good, you don't even notice one short hole per nine.

Man, all it would have taken is just a bit of thinkin' and this thread wouldn't exist  ;D
jeffmingay.com

David_Elvins

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Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2010, 10:52:23 PM »
Royal Melbourne Composite is a great course that only has one par 3 on the back nine.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Will MacEwen

Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2010, 10:55:53 PM »
Geez... I really feel like an idiot, now!

High Pointe, too... another of my favourite courses, with one par-3 on the front nine. See, when the holes are legit. good, you don't even notice one short hole per nine.


The first time I played PD I was stunned to learn there were 4 3s on the back - I think it was in the pub after the round going over the card. When the holes are good, you don't notice.  Even the back to back 3s didn't really register because they just suited the land.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really good 18-hole courses with a single par 3 on one nine...
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2010, 10:58:21 PM »
a couple from my home town
Royal Adelaide front nine (7th)
Glenelg front nine (3rd)

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