National Memberships

[Rob Rigg]

I wonder what the real market is for national members in the US?

There are a bunch of guys who are members at all the "elite" clubs - then the guys at the "new elite" clubs - but for most golfers with families and mortgages and a "home boss" who is patient but wants her husband around the annual golf budget may or may not include a home club and a few golf trips a year.

This group has some interesting options that involve no commitment or a small commitment and known financial costs:

1) 1 x Bandon per year or GBI and 1 x AZ, Cali, SC, FL winter trip per year or summer trip in MI, NE, or wherever - Might not be cheap but costs are predictable there is a wide selection of places one could go

2) Outpost Club or a similar club where you get access to a wide range of really good clubs for boys weekends or tournaments - costs are known and pretty good range of options w/o the "riff raff" factor

For this group to join a National club they are likely paying $Xk per year in dues plus initiation and will spend both of their annual golf trips at the same place. Even if you want to do it, convincing the "home boss" is a real challenge - "What about Bandon (or Pinehurst, or SC, or wherever)? That's expensive enough!"

To compete - the National club has to be 1) affordable enough for it to make sense and 2) compelling enough that a guy is willing to take most of his golf trips to the same spot

As a National Club that can't be an easy thing to contend with.

There is likely an even smaller group of guys out there who are doing the happy dance now because they really wanted to be part of a National club but could never swing it - I just don't think that group is big enough to float all of the new national type clubs in the US - especially those that are a real trek from metro areas.

It seems like the only way for a lot of these national clubs to get there is lower dues, increase membership and make sure people are calling and booking weekends in February for the summer so everyone doesn't show up at once.

[Dan Byrnes]

I wonder what the real market is for national members in the US?

There are a bunch of guys who are members at all the "elite" clubs - then the guys at the "new elite" clubs - but for most golfers with families and mortgages and a "home boss" who is patient but wants her husband around the annual golf budget may or may not include a home club and a few golf trips a year.

This group has some interesting options that involve no commitment or a small commitment and known financial costs:

1) 1 x Bandon per year or GBI and 1 x AZ, Cali, SC, FL winter trip per year or summer trip in MI, NE, or wherever - Might not be cheap but costs are predictable there is a wide selection of places one could go

2) Outpost Club or a similar club where you get access to a wide range of really good clubs for boys weekends or tournaments - costs are known and pretty good range of options w/o the "riff raff" factor

For this group to join a National club they are likely paying $Xk per year in dues plus initiation and will spend both of their annual golf trips at the same place. Even if you want to do it, convincing the "home boss" is a real challenge - "What about Bandon (or Pinehurst, or SC, or wherever)? That's expensive enough!"

To compete - the National club has to be 1) affordable enough for it to make sense and 2) compelling enough that a guy is willing to take most of his golf trips to the same spot

As a National Club that can't be an easy thing to contend with.

There is likely an even smaller group of guys out there who are doing the happy dance now because they really wanted to be part of a National club but could never swing it - I just don't think that group is big enough to float all of the new national type clubs in the US - especially those that are a real trek from metro areas.

It seems like the only way for a lot of these national clubs to get there is lower dues, increase membership and make sure people are calling and booking weekends in February for the summer so everyone doesn't show up at once.

Good points.  For me is living where I would prefer not to for family and the idea of finding a place I really like to transition to once my kids leave the nest.  If one just wants to golf it doesn't make much sense but if you want to be part of a community on a limited basis it is compelling.  Depending on location and if business travel brought me there I would be 3 times a year visitor but the fun of meeting other avid golfers, playing in some tournaments, member guests etc would be worth a reasonable sum to me.  My biggest concern is dropping a decent amount on initiation and then finding I don't use it enough to keep paying the dues. 

Dan

[C. Squier]

The first club I joined as a National member was almost too close to home....it was a 2 hour drive (flying) and I found myself not making the trip b/c it was so much easier to just play at home.  My current national club requires jumping on a plane and a commitment to planning a trip....I'll play many more rounds there than my first. 

That being said, why clubs of any makeup don't price National memberships in a way that they can get at least 50-100 national members is beyond me.  They rarely show up enough to put much stress on the tee sheet, but when they do they bring at least 3 guests who eat/play/sleep and loot the pro shop on the way out.  It's pure profit. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was wondering if anyone knows of any "good deals" on any National Memberships for Top 100 courses? 


Mike,

Hidden Creek, but, that's too far east for you.

Was your family from North Carolina ?

[Dave Givnish]

We set up our National membership with the intent that almost all will become full resident members within a period of about 5 to 7 years, since we live in a "retirement" area. Most will and some won't and that is fine. Our National members comprise less than 10% of all our playing members - which is less than 260 anyway. 

A club that is geared to a small resident membership and a large non-resident membership would have to deal with a lot more turnover, I suspect, and I'd be interested to see how cohesive of a club would result.  Friends at Secession have told me that the big events help build those relationships.  Otherwise, I'd think the membership would end up being ships passing in the night.

[Jud_T]

Rob,

Lose the Mom Jeans and put on the Pants!   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

Seccession is hard to get to for most "national" members.

I think there's remote and I think there's more remote.

Having the ability to get to a large nearby airport from almost anywhere in the country seems critical.

Denver Airport, perhaps 2-3 hours from Holyoke would seem to fit that bill.

Getting to Secession, is a little more difficult from most places.

Nothing proves this case more than .........................DISNEYWORLD.

When it was first developed, Orlando was considered .........remote.  
But, it had/developed a large airport that was to become accessible from almost everywhere in the country, thus assuring accessibility.

And, I think that's worked out for them.

[Terry Lavin]

Here's a deal for anybody looking at a national membership at a great course in a great Midwestern city. Join Beverly for $5000. It's 15 minutes from Midway airport. Twenty minutes from downtown hotels restaurants and clubs  Dues are very cheap.

[Michael George]

Question:  To what extent has Bandon Dunes hurt national memberships?

I think a lot of people are conflicted about joining a national club because they only have so much time away from work and family.  Bandon is a great experience at a reasonable price.  It is difficult to justify high initiation fees and dues when you can have an extraordinary experience at Bandon on a pay as you use it model.

Maybe what we are seeing is a natural progression for golf in America.  As public options become better and less cost prohibitive (ie. away from the Pebble model), are more and more national clubs destined to follow the Scottish model and allow some type of public play?  

Please do not use generalities as everyone here should realize that there will always be private national clubs that survive and thrive in America - for instance, I don't see ANGC, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, NGLA, Shinnecock and Sand Hills having financial problems anytime soon or ever changing their structure.  Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

[PCCraig]

Question:  To what extent has Bandon Dunes hurt national memberships?

I think a lot of people are conflicted about joining a national club because they only have so much time away from work and family.  Bandon is a great experience at a reasonable price.  It is difficult to justify high initiation fees and dues when you can have an extraordinary experience at Bandon on a pay as you use it model.

Maybe what we are seeing is a natural progression for golf in America.  As public options become better and less cost prohibitive (ie. away from the Pebble model), are more and more national clubs destined to follow the Scottish model and allow some type of public play?  

Please do not use generalities as everyone here should realize that there will always be private national clubs that survive and thrive in America - for instance, I don't see ANGC, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, NGLA, Shinnecock and Sand Hills having financial problems anytime soon or ever changing their structure.  Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

Ding ding ding. Bandon has surely soaked up quite a bit of the historical National Membership clientele's $. And why wouldn't it? It has 4 of the best 20-30 public golf courses in the country in one place, and there is no initiation fee.

[Jud_T]

Guys,

1.  Bandon is Awesome

2.  One can have a national membership at some very good clubs for the same price as 1 trip to bandon and go numerous times and have a private club experience without a foursome every 10 minutes.

3.  Some of our family members play golf as well...

[Dan Byrnes]

A club that is geared to a small resident membership and a large non-resident membership would have to deal with a lot more turnover, I suspect, and I'd be interested to see how cohesive of a club would result.  Friends at Secession have told me that the big events help build those relationships.  Otherwise, I'd think the membership would end up being ships passing in the night.

Dave, this comment hits the nail on the head for me.  I am not interested in a national club where my experience is going to either be like a resort guest or I always have to bring me own game with me.  I want a place that feels like my hometown club and I can show up for a few days and hang out.  Perhaps get involved in the games with the more regular or local members, participate in some tournaments, some member member stuff and a member guest (big priority).  A place where people will get to know me over time and I'll feel at home.  I realize I will have to put in some time and effort to meet people and staff for it to be a successful experience.  I also intend that I would be relocating to that area or spending more time there as I get older and my kids leave the house.

That is what I am looking for in a National Membership.  Otherwise there are just too many places similar to Bandon, Kohler and places that welcome visitors to make me want to pay initiation and dues for a buddy trip with my friends where since I am the member I will feel like I have to pay?

Dan

[Mac Plumart]

Public and private clubs provide a different experience.  Bandon vs Sand Hills (or another similiar course) isn't the same.  Some may prefer one and someone else another.

Terry, I almost joined a "regular" club as a nationql member but their lack of onsite lodging killed it for me.  But I think you bring another great option for people travling frequently to one area.

[Jud_T]

Hell I can't get away from swarms of GCA guys at my national club.  I want a club where I can play a round in solitude without seeing a bunch of flatbellied twenty somethings wearing bifocals and carrying hickories for their 3rd round of the day and kibitzing about insider industry stuff instead of the hot blonde on the first tee...

[Rob Rigg]

Hell I can't get away from swarms of GCA guys at my national club.  I want a club where I can play a round in solitude without seeing a bunch of flatbellied twenty somethings wearing bifocals and carrying hickories for their 3rd round of the day and kibitzing about insider industry stuff instead of the hot blonde on the first tee...

That's hilarious.

For the record I am a national membership'ish troll - just need to sell more shoes to make it happen

When you live on the west coast the Bandon factor is even more compelling. I can get to Bandon in about the same time it takes me to get to Holyoke and probably a couple hours less than Mullen or any club on the east coast that isn't right next to an airport. Most national clubs have 18 vs 72 (+13 soon) at Bandon. White Bandon may not have a remote national club vibe it does have a very special feel and culture.

However, if I can find a place where I can bring friends and meet up with friends who are members, visiting the club 3 to 4 times per year then it starts to make more sense. The key is having enough disposable income where you don't mind sinking in the initiation fee and annual dues if work or life gets so busy that you only visit once a year.

[Michael George]

Jud:

I promise you that if you ever see me at Kingsley:  (1) I am a semi-gray haired 40+ year old who realizes his insignificance in the world to people other than his wife and 5 kids, (2) that does not own hickories, but still has a flatbelly , and (3) will rarely kibitz about insider industry stuff as I don't pretend to be an insider.  I fit the "hobbyist" definition of the judge perfectly.

Most importantly, if you have a hot blonde on the first tee, I will certainly take notice --- then stripe one long and right down the middle and tip my cap to her   BTW - The hot blonde on the first tee might be a distinction that supports national membership.

[Michael George]

Public and private clubs provide a different experience.  Bandon vs Sand Hills (or another similiar course) isn't the same.  Some may prefer one and someone else another.

Terry, I almost joined a "regular" club as a nationql member but their lack of onsite lodging killed it for me.  But I think you bring another great option for people travling frequently to one area.

Mac:

I agree that there certainly is a difference.  The great private clubs often have unique experiences that cannot be replicated - I literally cannot wait to see Dismal River in June/July.  The question is to what extent people do not join national clubs because they just plan to go to Bandon once a year with their limited free time (which was not a viable option pre-Bandon).  My preference would be to have a unique national membership and go to Bandon each year.  However, my job and family don't allow that to happen right now.

[Bill Seitz]

This is a great thread for someone who is a prospective national member who probably needs to make a decision on pulling the trigger in the next few weeks.  Lots to think about.  Can anyone speak to what they feel, generally, are maybe some of the intangible benefits of membership?  Looking at it from a "holes/dollar" perspective, I'm not sure the ledger balances.  But first, it's hard to put a dollar value on a course that would otherwise be (somewhat) exclusive.  Second, my sense is there are a lot of things, probably different for everyone, that one gets out of a membership that can't necessarily be quantified.  And for those who are a few years in, do you find that you're getting out of what you expected?  More?  Less? 

[Dave Givnish]

Couple of comments:

Bid-ask for the memberships - the fee is split into essentially a stock share and a transfer fee.  The transfer fee is set by the club and the stock share price is set by the departing member.  It is the equivalent of the refundable deposit that was masqueraded as "equity" in the sales pitches of developers.  The club vets the candidate and then hands them a list of shares for sale.  The candidate and the departing member cut a deal and the candidate pays the transfer fee as well.  The club uses the transfer fees for capital hopefully.

Integrating National members into the club quickly and seamlessly was one of about three central concerns we had when establishing the membership.  Our members have been great about this and it has worked great.  National members need to be treated like any other member and not like second class citizens.

There is no way in hell that you can pencil out the numbers of belonging to a club as compared to traveling to resorts unless that is how you plan to use the club or that is how the club would treat you as a National member.  The intangibles or goodwill is everything.

[Ben Sims]

The only piece of advice I can give is to do your research.  Make a list of things you're looking for, and find a place that meets the majority of those.  

For me, the list looked like this

-Have a reputable history

-Have a strong local membership that kept the club solvent

-Be in my price range

-Be playable 12 months a year

-Be prestigious and interesting enough to get people to travel to join me

-Have a greens committee that understood how to keep the course

-Be in a town/city that my wife liked and could find things to do in

-Quick rounds the norm

-Easy to walk

-Be reasonable proximity to air travel

It doesn't hurt that I found a place where three of my five favorite architects have had an opportunity to make the course better over the course of its history.  

I also think it behooves anyone looking to join a club as a national member to directly ask how many members the club has and how many they'd like to have.  Percentage of memberships filled equals sustainability long term.

[John Shimp]

Ben,
That is a good list.  Of course your national club is my national club so we likely look at things similarly to some degree. 

After looking at Royal Melbourne last night and thinking of our course it continues to amaze me that Palmetto's waiting list isn't a mile long given all of the merits.  Actually heading there tonight to play tomorrow morning.  Pulling a fancy stay at the Willcox. 

[Tim Bert]

Ben - just re-read the brief history on the web site.  Rees Jones and which other two?!?

[Ben Sims]

Ben - just re-read the brief history on the web site.  Rees Jones and which other two?!?

No comment.  Back to frying a turkey.... 

[Chris Johnston]

Captain Crunch...

I have a hat to send to you.  We hydroed several greens today for the winter.  Now, I fully understand.

[Brad Fleischer]

Hell I can't get away from swarms of GCA guys at my national club.  I want a club where I can play a round in solitude without seeing a bunch of flatbellied twenty somethings wearing bifocals and carrying hickories for their 3rd round of the day and kibitzing about insider industry stuff instead of the hot blonde on the first tee...

We had a hot blond on the first tee ?  Where was she in Aug when I was there Figures