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Jud_T

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Butler to go coed?
« on: April 15, 2010, 03:43:05 PM »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

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H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 03:56:18 PM »
But I missed where Butler is going co-ed?
H.P.S.

Dan Moore

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 04:12:59 PM »
I love that Old Elm is a Donald Ross course.  :P
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

JLahrman

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 04:18:55 PM »
Quote from the article:

'Butler won't be all-men much longer, I can tell you that," said one man with ties to several Butler members. "Think about it: The gender thing is holding the club back from its real mission."'

Can anyone attest to what Butler's "real mission" is?  The article makes it appear that hosting a US Open is its mission, is that the case?

PCCraig

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 05:40:57 PM »
I love that Old Elm is a Donald Ross course.  :P

And it's mostly a Colt course to boot. Ross did construct the course though from what I remember.
H.P.S.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 07:09:10 PM »
I am assured Royal St Georges will be accepting lady members.....within the next 200 years.
Cave Nil Vino

Mike Sweeney

Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 07:14:34 PM »
Just curious if anyone know the last men's club that went co-ed and how is it going?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 07:24:07 PM »
The cheerleading squad can only improve!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 07:31:43 PM »
Squires in the Philly 'burbs (just down the road from my house) recently hired a woman employee for the first time. Does that count?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2010, 07:44:51 PM »
Just curious if anyone know the last men's club that went co-ed and how is it going?

I know one that did (might not be the last) under government pressure...I preferred the old way.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike Benham

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 07:47:32 PM »
Just curious if anyone know the last men's club that went co-ed and how is it going?

I know one that did (might not be the last) under government pressure...I preferred the old way.



So did my wife ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Carl Johnson

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 08:06:27 PM »
So lame.  Jud's question was "thoughts."  "So lame" is my thought.  This is old news.  The Augusta National CG thing has been going on forever on this issue.  The "discrimination" thing has been going on forever.  We've got a real world out here, with many more things to worry about now than where Butler stands today on this issue, even as golf enthusiasts.  I have absolutely no interest in joining Butler, though on the sex side I'd qualify.  I don't care what kind of a golf course they have, or whether the USGA holds the open there.  If the owners/members of Butler don't want to admit women, just like Augusta doesn't, who cares?  The world passed them by a long time ago. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 08:21:35 PM by Carl Johnson »

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 08:12:20 PM »
I think the most interesting part of the article was the part about Black Sheep. The all dudes thing isn't a big deal to me, but everything else about the club seems to be more along the lines of what the entire gca community has been talking about for a good year

"Black Sheep has no kitchen, just a large bar without stools — so members won't turn their backs to the tables. Two club employees buy food at Costco and make half-sandwiches, including peanut butter and freshly mixed jalapeno jelly, which are available at the turn.
Having no kitchen means that the club does not have to pay for a chef, a deep fryer or fine china. That keeps costs down ($85,000 initiation, just $6,000 per year in dues).
"Men can stand at a bar, talk about nothing and have a great time," Solano says.
They also save a few bucks on the sticker that goes on your guest locker: "BLACK SHEEP GOLF CLUB WELCOMES MR. _________"
The club's only rules: Leave your cell phone in the parking lot, don't wear a hat in the clubhouse and play in less than four hours.
There's one more rule: You have to be a dude."



JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 08:58:56 PM »
One of the patriarchs of Butler, Don Kelly, recently passed away.  He never would have authorized women members.  A different sect of members however, wants to get a "token" female member to placate the PGA.  I suspect that the anti-women member sect outweighs the new age members at this time.....and likely for the next decade.

We shall see though.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2010, 09:03:04 PM »
Jaeger,

Back in 2003 David Owen wrote a very interesting editorial for Golf Digest at the height of the Martha Burk activity.  It is called "The Case for All-Male Golf Clubs", I'm sure you could find it online.

The piece included an interview with Vincent Solano.  Direct excerpt:



The state with the most all-male golf clubs, for some reason, is Illinois, which has four of them. I recently visited the newest of the four, Black Sheep Golf Club, which is situated on a rolling, treeless parcel of exurban farmland about an hour west of downtown Chicago. The clubhouse, a simple white barn, sits on a rise near the center of the property.

The decision to exclude women from Black Sheep was an economic one. "Our idea was to form a club where the emphasis would be on golf," Vincent Solano, the club president, told me. "We wanted to keep the expense down, and to charge only enough to cover the cost, and to have just 200 members so that you can play golf any time that you want to. We don't have a restaurant. We have a shower, a bathroom, a bar, a place to sit, and a golf course." To attract a significant number of women, he said, he would have needed to add expensive amenities, a full social calendar and many more employees--and even with those things, he is certain, the response would have been limited. "Believe me," he said, "if there were a hundred women who would join a club like this, we would have women. But there's no market for it. We would never find enough women to join to justify the cost of providing facilities for them, even as guests."

In 1988, Solano started a different kind of golf club, called Royal Fox, which was the first private golf club in the Chicago area to permit women to join on their own, as full voting members rather than as spouses. The response was under-whelming. "Very few women applied, or even asked about applying," he told me. Today, Royal Fox has roughly 275 members, of whom six are women.

"Today, we hear the word `discrimination,' and we fall to the ground," Solano said. "That's because we immediately think of race, and we know that's wrong. That word is poison, but it tells a story without the facts."
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 09:10:10 PM by JLahrman »

Jim Tang

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 11:53:25 PM »
Jaeger -

I can attest that Black Sheep pretty much matches the quote you copied.  As some here may know, I work there in the summers.  The entire vibe is ultra low key, especially for an upper end private club.  They have a double sided driving range, 27 holes, a bag room, bar and modest lockeroom.  That's it.  The range is 50 yards from the pro shop, the 1st and 10th tee are 30 yards from the pro shop.  The 1st and 10th holes share the same tee box and they have simply shaved a portion of the box and cut holes for a small putting green.

No inside grill but they do have a grill you would find on your back deck at home and they'll throw burgers or dogs or whatever you may want on there.  All the food is free. 

No signs on the course, no waste baskets, no ball washers, dirt cart paths that are mostly out of sight.  The average walk from green to tee is maybe 20 yards.  They don't have a yardage book.  An average day is probably 25 rounds and in 3 seasons working there I have never had a group wait on a shot (I loop out there).  Kevin Healy, the pro, does a fantastic job.  Kevin, the super and the manager all have dogs and they are allowed to freely wander the grounds, often tagging along with a group.  Black Sheep is a really cool place that GCA guys would love.

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 05:45:47 AM »
Jim,

If Black Sheep is low key - does that also reflect in the Greenkeeping Staff and machinery?

How many Greenkeepers are there for the 27 Holes?

Jim Tang

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2010, 12:50:54 PM »
John -

That is a good question.  I'm not sure.  The course is prairie style, so they allow the prairie grasses to grow to about head high along the edges of the holes.  I would guess that limits the need for cutting and maintanence greatly.  There are no trees on the course, thus reducing maintanence further.  I don't really know the ins and outs of the maintanence side of things. 

I know they have one head greenskeeper and an assistant.  I have heard they may be a bit understaffed in terms of the greenskeeping crew.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2010, 01:17:03 PM »
I am not convinced that to allow women to join one needs a full social calendar, etc.  Simply allowing woman to join, not necessarily seeking them, would suffice.  The expense involved would be quite minimal.  Add a female bathroom and a small locker room.  I'm sure Black Sheep is a great club, but the club president is being disingenuous when he states "the case for excluding woman was an economic one".  Nonsense.  The case for excluding woman was because he did not want females as members.

J Sadowsky

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2010, 01:19:57 PM »
Cliff,

It could be an economic one, although not the one he is making.  The club could have chosen to exclude female members because it believed that there was a market for men who wanted to join a club that wouldn't permit female members.  No need to ascribe the biases of the marketed-to audience to the marketer.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2010, 01:26:30 PM »
Cliff,

It could be an economic one, although not the one he is making.  The club could have chosen to exclude female members because it believed that there was a market for men who wanted to join a club that wouldn't permit female members.  No need to ascribe the biases of the marketed-to audience to the marketer.

Agreed and that is my point.  The club president could at the very least exhibit honesty as to why females are excluded.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2010, 09:19:52 PM »
Jim - You make it sound even better than the article did! I understand they are all about sustainability, but perhaps a little $ for pr and a place like this could really become the model for things to come... Sounds like the kind of place that doesn't get a lot of course raters coming through, how does the course measure up to top-100s / doak 8's / good, solid golf courses?

Jim Tang

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2010, 10:26:26 PM »
Jaeger -

I do sound like a PR guy for Black Sheep!

I think the club has a model that makes a lot of sense.  They really keep their overhead down by not having a pool or enormous club house or social events.  For instance, the cart barn, club storage, head pro's office and super's office are all under one roof, in a large metal barn/shed.  The bar is swanky, plush, but not very big, maybe 1500 sq feet.  The pro shop is attached to the bar, and it's very small, maybe 20 feet by 10.  I think their fleet of golf carts number 20 or so.  The shop encourages guys to walk.  The course was built with walking in mind.  All of that has been the vision of the course since it opened in 2002.

Because of low overhead, the club can invest most of its resources in what all of the members are there for in the first place; the golf course.

I'm not smart enough to place Black Sheep on the Doak scale.  It's currently ranked #68 on Golfweeks Top 100 Modern, and that seems about right.  The land is rolling, gentle.  No homes border the course, just farmland.  The fairways are very wide, 70 or 80 yards in some cases.  However, there certainly are preferred lines off tees and almost always the best line brings a bunker or tall prairie grass or some other hazard into play.  The greens are open in front, allowing you to bounce shots onto the putting surface.  The course gets a lot of wind, so the wide fairways and open greens in front make for a very playable golf course.  The greens are really good, pretty big and have long, subtle slopes.  Many would place Black Sheep in Chicago's top 5 courses and it is a cool place to spend a day.

I'll get some pictures of Black Sheep up later tonight.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Butler to go coed?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2010, 10:36:20 PM »
The expense involved would be quite minimal.  Add a female bathroom and a small locker room. 

A second rate bathroom and locker room would be sufficient?  In what universe?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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