[Terry Lavin]

Quote from the article:

'Butler won't be all-men much longer, I can tell you that," said one man with ties to several Butler members. "Think about it: The gender thing is holding the club back from its real mission."'

Can anyone attest to what Butler's "real mission" is?  The article makes it appear that hosting a US Open is its mission, is that the case?

The club has two central missions:  First to supply a first class golf experience for its members and guests.  The second is to provide a championship golf course that tests the very best in the game, whether it's a tour event or a national championship, like a US Open.  The gender issue is prohibiting the second half, and it's a shame.  It's not like Bob O'Link or the other clubs mentioned could ever host a tour event.  Butler could host the US Open with six weeks notice.  It's that good.  It's that demanding.  And its location, its facilities and its history of hosting the Western Open back in the day suggests to me that it would be the natural spot on the informal rota for the US Open.

As for the question of how long the prohibition mentality will hang on, I don't think it will be all that long.  Butler National, it seems to me, needs a US Open to reach its expected place in the pantheon of championship golf.

[jeffwarne]

Cliff,

It could be an economic one, although not the one he is making.  The club could have chosen to exclude female members because it believed that there was a market for men who wanted to join a club that wouldn't permit female members.  No need to ascribe the biases of the marketed-to audience to the marketer.

Agreed and that is my point.  The club president could at the very least exhibit honesty as to why females are excluded.

The club president did exhibit honesty-you just don't agree with his answer.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff,

It could be an economic one, although not the one he is making.  The club could have chosen to exclude female members because it believed that there was a market for men who wanted to join a club that wouldn't permit female members.  No need to ascribe the biases of the marketed-to audience to the marketer.

Agreed and that is my point.  The club president could at the very least exhibit honesty as to why females are excluded.

The club president did exhibit honesty-you just don't agree with his answer.

Kevin...Given the budget of a club like Butler the cost could be relatively small.  Again, the reason for excluding females has nothing, yes nothing, to do with the cost of a bathroom and small locker room.

Justin...You are incorrect.  I do not believe the reason women are excluded has to do with not desiring to provide more social activities.  The reason is not an economic one.  Again, women could be allowed to join as is - simply provide a bathroom and small locker room. 

The reason women are not allowed to join is simple.  The club wishes to be an all male club.  The reason is sociological not economic.  It matters nil whether you believe all male, all female, clubs are a good thing to have.  Just let's be honest and not use rationalizations.  The club president is simply disingenuous. 

[Jud_T]

Cliff,

I'm with you.  Although there probably would in fact only be a few female members and guests, the cost of keeping the minimalist golf focus and simply adding a small women's locker room/bathroom would be relatively small....

[David_Elvins]

Cliff,

I'm with you.  Although there probably would in fact only be a few female members and guests, the cost of keeping the minimalist golf focus and simply adding a small women's locker room/bathroom would be relatively small....

I agree as well. 

It's about offering an opportunity to women, not catring to their needs. 

When you see that so many good players on the women's tour are lesbians, I often wonder why they should be excluded from all male clubs.  The needs and requirements in a golf club of a good lesbian golfer would seem to be very similar to what somewhere like Black Sheep has to offer.  They don't need dances, social occasions etc.  They probably wouldn't even care about using the men's toilet. 

[Sean Leary]

Politically incorrect post of the year. Well done David.

[Carl Johnson]

Cliff,

I'm with you.  Although there probably would in fact only be a few female members and guests, the cost of keeping the minimalist golf focus and simply adding a small women's locker room/bathroom would be relatively small....

I agree as well.  . . .

When you see that so many good players on the women's tour are lesbians . . . .

David, assuming you are serious, please name names.  Which ones are and which ones aren't?  And, what's you evidence?  If you're not serious, I do get it.

[David_Elvins]

Sean,

i see some irony in a post supporting equality on a thread about sexually discriminatory golf clubs being labelled the "Pollitically Incorrect Post of the Year".  Only on golf Club Atlas

Carl,

Not sure if I get where you are coming from.  It's almost as if you think I am accusing people of being lesbians.  There is nothing wrong with being a lesbian and absolutely no need for it to be delivered or taken as a slur. 

my point was serious but maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. 

To take one example,  i met Laura davies once briefly (I have no idea whether she is a lesbian or not, but that is beside the point).  from what I briefly encountered, and from what I have heard from others, she is great value and great company.  she likes a joke, likes a drink, down to earth but with a great respect for the game of golf. 

now if she was friends with a member at Black Sheep who wanted to invite her to join,  hypothetically is very hard to say that the club would not cater for her needs as it is set up.  She probably wouldn't want to go to balls, a restaurant, etc.  she wouldn't need ladies tees.  Gender aside, she might fit the requirements of membership perfectly.  And if she didnt, i am sure there is some woman somewhere who does.  And this to me is what equality is about.   making a club accomodating to women in general and what they want from a club is a lot different to excluding women who fall into line with the direction and beliefs of a club. 

[Tim Nugent]

Cliff,

I'm with you.  Although there probably would in fact only be a few female members and guests, the cost of keeping the minimalist golf focus and simply adding a small women's locker room/bathroom would be relatively small....

Like Muirfield? And women can play from the Men's senior tees too.  But, in all seriousness, Royal Fox, Vince's 1st development was the prototypical CC.  The clubhouse is a replica of Thomas Jefferson's Montecello.  Being a golfer and having "Been there/Done that" with the CC scene, BS is the complete opposite.  In Chicago, there is a certain exclusivity that comes with all-male membership and that's what was being marketed - plain and simple.  The rest of the "Model" is just the Dunes Club on a larger scale.

[PCCraig]

Cliff,

I'm with you.  Although there probably would in fact only be a few female members and guests, the cost of keeping the minimalist golf focus and simply adding a small women's locker room/bathroom would be relatively small....

Like Muirfield? And women can play from the Men's senior tees too.  But, in all seriousness, Royal Fox, Vince's 1st development was the prototypical CC.  The clubhouse is a replica of Thomas Jefferson's Montecello.  Being a golfer and having "Been there/Done that" with the CC scene, BS is the complete opposite.  In Chicago, there is a certain exclusivity that comes with all-male membership and that's what was being marketed - plain and simple.  The rest of the "Model" is just the Dunes Club on a larger scale.

Royal Fox really is a polar opposite. It's a big complex, bad golf course (IMO), homes on the course, etc...

[PCCraig]

I don't know what's worse...not allowing women on the grounds, or letting them in only to get a US Open.

[Carl Johnson]

Sean,

i see some irony in a post supporting equality on a thread about sexually discriminatory golf clubs being labelled the "Pollitically Incorrect Post of the Year".  Only on golf Club Atlas

Carl,

Not sure if I get where you are coming from.  It's almost as if you think I am accusing people of being lesbians.  There is nothing wrong with being a lesbian and absolutely no need for it to be delivered or taken as a slur. 

my point was serious but maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. 

To take one example,  i met Laura davies once briefly (I have no idea whether she is a lesbian or not, but that is beside the point).  from what I briefly encountered, and from what I have heard from others, she is great value and great company.  she likes a joke, likes a drink, down to earth but with a great respect for the game of golf. 

now if she was friends with a member at Black Sheep who wanted to invite her to join,  hypothetically is very hard to say that the club would not cater for her needs as it is set up.  She probably wouldn't want to go to balls, a restaurant, etc.  she wouldn't need ladies tees.  Gender aside, she might fit the requirements of membership perfectly.  And if she didnt, i am sure there is some woman somewhere who does.  And this to me is what equality is about.   making a club accomodating to women in general and what they want from a club is a lot different to excluding women who fall into line with the direction and beliefs of a club. 

David, let me try to be direct (rather than sorry-a-- backhanded sarcastic).  I am an old guy and have been all over the place on this.  Here's my perspective.  (1) "It's almost as if you think I am accusing people of being lesbians.  There is nothing wrong with being a lesbian and absolutely no need for it to be delivered or taken as a slur."  My reponse: There are folks out there -- not you or me -- who do take it to be a slur -- that is a fact.  So, why bring it up unless it is relevant (a point which I will not discurse upon further, but you get the idea).  (2)  In my experience, the gender orientation thing has nothing to do with golf.  From the "private club" standpoint, you might want to admit only men, only women, only straight men, only gay men, only straight women, or only gay women.  But, what about from a "private golf club" standpoint?  My suggestion is that interest in golf is the issue, not s--ual orientation.  (3)  But it's more than "golf" at a "private club."  In addition to golf, you're going to want social (not s--ual) compatability, at least from my perspective.  (Is this right or wrong?  Let's assume it's right.  I belong to a private club, so I guess I think it's right.  But, with the economy the way it is, sometimes you bend a little.)  (4)  Again, in my personal experience, social compatability has nothing to do with s--ual orientation.  (5) To repeat, why bring it up?  This is just my personal view based on having been around here almost 70 years.  (6)  As I've said before, on this post, the world has for now passed Butler and ANGC by.

[Cliff Hamm]

With age comes wisdom...

[David_Elvins]

Carl,

Good post, can't disagree with any of that.  

The reason i mentioned lesbians in the first place was as an example  of a group of women who generally, have different social requirements than the wives of all male club members.  It sounds like, from the quote from the Black Sheep founder, that he categorises women's needs by the needs of his wife and her friends, without consideration that there are actually other women out there who seek different things in a golf club.  

If he wants an all male golf club, that is fine, but the argument that there are no women who would be happy with the current facilities is flawed IMO. 

[Tim Martin]

Jaeger -

I do sound like a PR guy for Black Sheep!

I think the club has a model that makes a lot of sense.  They really keep their overhead down by not having a pool or enormous club house or social events.  For instance, the cart barn, club storage, head pro's office and super's office are all under one roof, in a large metal barn/shed.  The bar is swanky, plush, but not very big, maybe 1500 sq feet.  The pro shop is attached to the bar, and it's very small, maybe 20 feet by 10.  I think their fleet of golf carts number 20 or so.  The shop encourages guys to walk.  The course was built with walking in mind.  All of that has been the vision of the course since it opened in 2002.

Because of low overhead, the club can invest most of its resources in what all of the members are there for in the first place; the golf course.

I'm not smart enough to place Black Sheep on the Doak scale.  It's currently ranked #68 on Golfweeks Top 100 Modern, and that seems about right.  The land is rolling, gentle.  No homes border the course, just farmland.  The fairways are very wide, 70 or 80 yards in some cases.  However, there certainly are preferred lines off tees and almost always the best line brings a bunker or tall prairie grass or some other hazard into play.  The greens are open in front, allowing you to bounce shots onto the putting surface.  The course gets a lot of wind, so the wide fairways and open greens in front make for a very playable golf course.  The greens are really good, pretty big and have long, subtle slopes.  Many would place Black Sheep in Chicago's top 5 courses and it is a cool place to spend a day.

I'll get some pictures of Black Sheep up later tonight.

Sounds like an awesome place. Is it me or does 1500 square feet sound like a pretty good size bar area?

[Scott Warren]

David,

The more you continue to generalise about gay women the more of a caveman you paint yourself as. Some of the generalisations and comments you've made in this thread would be offensive were they not so thoroughly laughable.

And it comes just a week after you asked if Billy Payne only chastised Tiger because he was black and then you made some comment trying to - probably jokingly, but nonetheless - link Aryan groups and the KKK to Greg Norman.

One would be forgiven for thinking you're trying to be outrageous just to get people to pay attention to you, because I don't believe for a second you're actually this backward.

[Sean_A]

Hang on.  Are we talking about all male clubs or lesbianism?  Or was it money in the bank or an overdraft?  I mean, we can talk about either, but lets keep them straight because I am dead confused. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Good point Sean...

So, single gender sporting clubs - OK or not?

Yes is my answer...

Would I join a single gender sporting club?

Yes again

Would I join because it is a single gender club?

No

Should they continue to exist?

No problem with that...

[David_Elvins]

David,

The more you continue to generalise about gay women the more of a caveman you paint yourself as. Some of the generalisations and comments you've made in this thread would be offensive were they not so thoroughly laughable.

Sorry to have offended you Scott, if you wish to take the time to explain what claims have offended you, I would be happy to explain your misunderstanding of what should be a pretty straight forward issue for a young man such as yourself.  

Only on golfclubatlas could someone in favour of equality be described as a caveman on a thread about discrimatory golf clubs.

and yes Scott, I am just desperate for attention, that is why I have averaged a whopping 0.3 posts a day for the last 8 years.  Lets keep the personal sledging, out of it please and stick to the issue.

[Scott Warren]

I know your comments weren't deliberately hateful, I just think they were a tad ill-advised.

[David_Elvins]

good, cause I am off to bed.

[Scott Warren]

I love happy endings. Sweet dreams of strategic par threes.

[Jud_T]

Well, it seems to me that lesbians certainly ARE relevant to the concept of the all-male golf club.  And it also seems to me that lesbians represent the perfect win win situation for a place like Butler.

One of the reasons all male clubs continue to exist is the persistent, albeit not often spoken, concern about innocent flirting that turns into purposeful flirting that turns into a hell of a lot more - whether it's with other members or the tennis pro or the golf pro or whatever. That's been going on forever in all sorts of social places, including golf clubs.  Hell, it happens within church groups!    But it destroys lives, friendships and families ... it's a legitimate issue.

Lesbians solve the problem!  If Butler were to admit a few lesbians, they could get their US Open. The members' wives wouldn't have anything to worry about. And the members themselves wouldn't have anything to worry about.

And they could still sit around playing cards naked! 

[Cliff Hamm]

Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods could join!

[Phil McDade]

Butler should just give Ellen Degeneris a membership and be done with it.

You meant Oprah, right? After all, she's local...

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