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Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Woking Reno
« on: April 15, 2010, 01:55:58 AM »
Played Woking yesterday and noted something of a "master plan" sitting on the clubhouse table from Dec 09.  Most was really to do with bunker resoration, largely related to poor performance of imported turf on the faces of bunkers near the greens and a debate about whether to return these to heather faces as most of the fairway bunkers still have.   Seems there was an intentional strategy previously not to have heather faces on the greenshide traps - not sure why, they do look far better. 

Anyway, a lot of bunker refacing seems to have been done, but not sure what it is, as it has yet to grow in.

Of most interest however was plan or at least a design for a new 16th hole.  Move the tee back and left to behind the 15th green, join up the ponds into one large pond so that the tee shot pretty much skirts the edge all the way to a new green more in line with the others on the course.  Largely a drainage issue, but also adding a few yeards and perhaps protecting that boundary fence as well, but also a deisre to get this hole, that was always a little odd, looking a little more appropriate.  Spoke to an old chap in the bar, doesnt seem to be universal support for it, as it did seem to have a touch of Augusta 16 about it, so not sure whether it will go ahead.

Forgot who the designing firm was who was doign the work, I had a few wines by then

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 03:21:10 AM »
I believe Martin Ebert is advising them - he is a member there.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 03:26:27 AM »
Yes that rings a bell.

I must confess the old girl is looking a little scruffy right now.  A tough winter so its only early in the growing season, but the bunkering is looking rather disjointed.  Different styles, different face grasses and different types of sand - perhaps it is just in a transition stage.

Greens however remain a complete hoot and that makes up for all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 04:40:00 AM »
Martin Ebert is a long way in to the current 5 year plan I believe... Didn't know about the proposal on the 16th... Did know that his brief to date had mainly been bunker renovation (with heather faces).... Also know that the club introduced a new tee on the 3rd and that there was large debate about whether it should go high up behind the 2nd green or low down on the other side of the existing tee (the latter won the day).... The club have been clearing a lot of scrub under the trees over the past few years as well which makes a big difference...

Interesting about the intentional strategy to not have heather on the greenside traps... There was a good discussion about this on a thread from late 2008 I think... The bunker at the 3rd green was highlighted as a fantastic bunker... Everyone agreed with that regarding its placement but a couple of points were made about the heather face... a) It didn't tie in with surrounds.... and b) It might take away playability from what should be some excellent undulations at the front of that green...

I'll try and find it...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 06:14:08 AM »
Wow, change the 16th?  I would be greatly saddened to that happen as it is one of my favourite holes because its the least obvious hole on the course.  In fact, I think if there is gonna be a change it should be to bring back what I think used to be a cross bunker short of the green.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 08:40:02 AM »
Not sure if the 16th was serious as there was no discussion of it in the body of the report, just a large diagram and graphic on the last page, showing how it would look.  Hard to really get a feel for how it would play in reality, however i am not a fan of the current hole, it is not a bad hole, but not in my view up to the standard of those around it - sort of just fills a gap.

Yes there was a one line comment that past committees has intentionally decided to keep heather away from greenside traps, presumably to introduce a touch of fairness and to let the ball bounce around a bit rather than just plugging in scrub.  Not sure, I love the heather, the 3rd is lovely

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 06:10:57 PM »
Saw Reno in the title and thought 'Well I'll never get to play there...'


I've never taken a camera to Woking (or I can't find any pics if I did) but that tee on 16 is absolutely the coolest I've ever seen. There is no separation between the 15th green and it, it just flows from one to the other, all on the same level. Please leave it as it is.

The two ponds are artificial created in the early days when it was called called something like "Woking Golf and Curling Club" and I believe they were once square.  Agreed the green looks 'modern' compared to the rest just leave that green/tee alone.

from a purely selfish POV if they tart the place up they'll just want more money off the visiting golfer.  Shame because I go there at least once a year, something to look forward too.

Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 06:25:38 PM »
Not sure if the 16th was serious as there was no discussion of it in the body of the report, just a large diagram and graphic on the last page, showing how it would look.  Hard to really get a feel for how it would play in reality, however i am not a fan of the current hole, it is not a bad hole, but not in my view up to the standard of those around it - sort of just fills a gap.

Yes there was a one line comment that past committees has intentionally decided to keep heather away from greenside traps, presumably to introduce a touch of fairness and to let the ball bounce around a bit rather than just plugging in scrub.  Not sure, I love the heather, the 3rd is lovely

Filler hole?  The 16th is a classic example of the catch the guy out sleeping hole.  Granted, without a fronting hazard the nasty front to back sloping green losing some effect, but there is still plenty of bite.  My guess is Low/Paton didn't alter this green and it may be one of the few somewhat original greens on the course.  It certainly stands out from others - in a good way.  If this is originalish, why do you spose it was left alone?  Its architecture like this which gets lost in the shuffle when we try improve courses.  This simple style of architecture is one of the main reasons English courses can be so charming.  I say keep the dirty mitts off and be happy for the diversity. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 02:49:20 AM »
I suspect Woking is one of those places that is in no rush to change.  The remit of the plan was bunkers and I feel the 16th was sort of just tossed in the back to get people thinking.  I doubt there is any great enthusiasm to do much to that hole in the near term unless there is some more boundary issues.

To be honest I would prefer to see a bit of a touch up on the short 7th first.  Nice hole but those bunkers on the left side at least to my mind dont really look right.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 04:36:05 AM »
George Ritchie is the Secretary / Golf Director there... And on my one meeting with him, he seemed like a very clued in sort of individual who was keen to restore heathland characteristics whilst not making too many 'modernising' changes... That said, they have added quite a few back tees in recent years and I know he wasn't happy with the 9th hole - There had been plenty of discussion over that...

The 16th green - I'd need to go back... I remember liking it a lot, I remember it being very narrow... Is it really front to back though?... Could well be but I just don't recall it that way...

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 05:21:04 AM »
9th is a bugger - you need to smack the crap out of a drive to try and clear the pine on the corner or perhaps try and sneak a draw around it in order to get within range.  Otherwise you are a 3 wood up the hill.  I played it twice the other days, once I hit one thru the middle of the pine tree (very cunning of me) to prime position and the other time i drew it around to prime position but still had a full 5 iron up to the green on both occasions - I pulled both about 5 yards left and put one on the 10th tee and the other on the wooden steps leading up to the 10th tee. 

It is a great peice of ground for a hole, but so little space around the green for such a long par 4 - they would have to move the 10th tee to the right to open up space (need to remove some trees), but then that leaves a downhill shot to the 10th which would probably require a whole redesign of that green as well.  Tricky

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 05:53:10 AM »
9th is a bugger - you need to smack the crap out of a drive to try and clear the pine on the corner or perhaps try and sneak a draw around it in order to get within range.  Otherwise you are a 3 wood up the hill.  I played it twice the other days, once I hit one thru the middle of the pine tree (very cunning of me) to prime position and the other time i drew it around to prime position but still had a full 5 iron up to the green on both occasions - I pulled both about 5 yards left and put one on the 10th tee and the other on the wooden steps leading up to the 10th tee. 

It is a great peice of ground for a hole, but so little space around the green for such a long par 4 - they would have to move the 10th tee to the right to open up space (need to remove some trees), but then that leaves a downhill shot to the 10th which would probably require a whole redesign of that green as well.  Tricky

Josh

You and I seem to be on different wave lengths.  I think the approach to #9 is superb.  It could be a bit dangerous, but one can always wait for the tee to clear.  Besides, anybody on that tee will be watching the approaches.  Its the drive I don't like.  First off, the look of the multiple tees is awkward.  Second, the shot is very prescribed unless one can hit a huge shot over the trees.  From the front tees, for many, they will be hitting less off the tee than to the green.  I would like to see many of the trees on the corner go and bunkers used instead. Because the green would be on view this would encourage guys to go for the risky shot.  Or, the right side of the fairway at the turn banked a bit to contain balls hit with a draw a bit more, but if one does miss it right he is in serious trouble.  In all honesty, the 9th is the only hole I think is messed up. 

How did the work on #6 turn out?  Is the water better utilized for the approach?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 06:15:11 AM »
Sean,

I think they looked at straightening out 9 completely but it would have left an unacceptable walk from 8 green to 9 tees which is completely out of character with the course... I agree with most of what you say... I like the approach but isn't the green a little flat / hemmed in though?... Again, I can't remember well


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 06:38:23 AM »
Sean,

I think they looked at straightening out 9 completely but it would have left an unacceptable walk from 8 green to 9 tees which is completely out of character with the course... I agree with most of what you say... I like the approach but isn't the green a little flat / hemmed in though?... Again, I can't remember well



Ally

I am not suggesting straightening the hole.  Keep the 75ish angle dogleg, but use bunkers rather than trees on the left. 

For sure the green is hemmed in.  The left bank is essentially the back of the 10th tee.  The green slopes strongly back to front - a good green considering the uphill nature of the shot.  Guys can try to bounce one up close or just accept the downhill putt coming back. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 07:11:31 AM »
Sean,

I think they looked at straightening out 9 completely but it would have left an unacceptable walk from 8 green to 9 tees which is completely out of character with the course... I agree with most of what you say... I like the approach but isn't the green a little flat / hemmed in though?... Again, I can't remember well



Ally

I am not suggesting straightening the hole.  Keep the 75ish angle dogleg, but use bunkers rather than trees on the left. 

For sure the green is hemmed in.  The left bank is essentially the back of the 10th tee.  The green slopes strongly back to front - a good green considering the uphill nature of the shot.  Guys can try to bounce one up close or just accept the downhill putt coming back. 

Ciao

Sean, I'm with you - I don't like the idea of straightening it either... It works well as a dogleg left after the dogleg right (and excellent) 8th hole... But it does need something done... Tree removal and a couple of diagonal bunkers might work although I'm loathe to suggest adding bunkers anywhere on a course that is not wanting to hold tournaments for the pros...

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2010, 11:40:27 AM »
Not sure if the 16th was serious as there was no discussion of it in the body of the report, just a large diagram and graphic on the last page, showing how it would look.  Hard to really get a feel for how it would play in reality, however i am not a fan of the current hole, it is not a bad hole, but not in my view up to the standard of those around it - sort of just fills a gap.

Yes there was a one line comment that past committees has intentionally decided to keep heather away from greenside traps, presumably to introduce a touch of fairness and to let the ball bounce around a bit rather than just plugging in scrub.  Not sure, I love the heather, the 3rd is lovely

Filler hole?  The 16th is a classic example of the catch the guy out sleeping hole.  Granted, without a fronting hazard the nasty front to back sloping green losing some effect, but there is still plenty of bite.  My guess is Low/Paton didn't alter this green and it may be one of the few somewhat original greens on the course.  It certainly stands out from others - in a good way.  If this is originalish, why do you spose it was left alone?  Its architecture like this which gets lost in the shuffle when we try improve courses.  This simple style of architecture is one of the main reasons English courses can be so charming.  I say keep the dirty mitts off and be happy for the diversity. 

Ciao


http://www.wokinggolfclub.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=2129fef7d11bfbe9&v=1&mp=dd89671bb1abcee4&catid=0ed70d5d7ce7e883&mpd=f10fa3949af5dbe6

Sean are you confusing 16th and 17th greens?  16 is two tier with a lot more elevation on the rear section.  17 falls away and the bunker front fight was admired in print more than once by Darwin who credited Low with it.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2010, 02:33:16 AM »
Not sure if the 16th was serious as there was no discussion of it in the body of the report, just a large diagram and graphic on the last page, showing how it would look.  Hard to really get a feel for how it would play in reality, however i am not a fan of the current hole, it is not a bad hole, but not in my view up to the standard of those around it - sort of just fills a gap.

Yes there was a one line comment that past committees has intentionally decided to keep heather away from greenside traps, presumably to introduce a touch of fairness and to let the ball bounce around a bit rather than just plugging in scrub.  Not sure, I love the heather, the 3rd is lovely

Filler hole?  The 16th is a classic example of the catch the guy out sleeping hole.  Granted, without a fronting hazard the nasty front to back sloping green losing some effect, but there is still plenty of bite.  My guess is Low/Paton didn't alter this green and it may be one of the few somewhat original greens on the course.  It certainly stands out from others - in a good way.  If this is originalish, why do you spose it was left alone?  Its architecture like this which gets lost in the shuffle when we try improve courses.  This simple style of architecture is one of the main reasons English courses can be so charming.  I say keep the dirty mitts off and be happy for the diversity. 

Ciao


http://www.wokinggolfclub.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=2129fef7d11bfbe9&v=1&mp=dd89671bb1abcee4&catid=0ed70d5d7ce7e883&mpd=f10fa3949af5dbe6

Sean are you confusing 16th and 17th greens?  16 is two tier with a lot more elevation on the rear section.  17 falls away and the bunker front fight was admired in print more than once by Darwin who credited Low with it.


Tony

Yes, I am confusing the 16th and 17th.  It is the 17th I would not like to see changed.  The 16th is neither here nor there for me. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2010, 08:51:01 AM »
Tony/Sean -

The "Johnnie Low" bunker in the face of the 17th green should not be touched. It was discussed by Darwin and others and was quite famous in the day. The Heathland Miracle and all that.

OTOH, the 16th looked out place. Has the hole always had the little pond? The green has a Florida resort feel to it.

Bob

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woking Reno
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 08:09:04 PM »
As Tony points out, that pond is history.  There's a real connection between that hole and the early history of the club.  As I understand it the pond was man made for the purpose of curling. There are still curling stones in the club house.  It would be sacrilege to change the pond.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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