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Lou_Duran

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2010, 09:06:36 AM »
I had the extremely good fortune of playing CGC earlier this year.  Though I am not a huge Ross fan, I came away from my rounds there wanting to see more of it.  It is an outstanding golf course, full of variety and shotmaking opportunities, and certainly worthy of greater consideration.  Not being able to attend the DC this year was a major disappointment as it is one of the friendliest, most fun events associated with this site.  I look forward to next year's DC with great anticipation, though from the sound of it, 2010's will be hard to beat.    

John Shimp

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #126 on: October 28, 2010, 09:35:21 AM »
Matt
Glad to see you post here.  Do you think that CGC willl consider going to a new grass for the putting surfaces at some point? 
Also, any thoughts on the zoysia collars that are starting to show up around Charlotte (eg Myers Park)? 
I played at Carolina in late August and while the greens showed some wear from a tough summer the course was in spectacular playing condition.  I love that place.  Also nice to see  that the fescues came in so well and folks stopped cutting across it with golf carts....

Matt Wharton

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #127 on: October 28, 2010, 12:41:02 PM »
John
At this time I do not see CGC going the ultradwarf route.  This summer was definitely one of the worst and we discovered where our weakest areas existed.  We made the investment in additional fans which I believe will make a world of difference if and when future summers are that severe.  However, we are bouncing around the idea of converting our chipping green in the short game practice area to an ultradwarf.  I know Quail has done so (converted to Champion) and we have at least discussed the pros and cons at the committee level.  We'll see.  I know before CGC would ever throw in the towel on bentgrass greens we would have to suffer through at least 3 or 4 more summers like this year in the next 5 to 6 years.  As for the zoysia...I like the fact it can tolerate ultra close mowing heights which makes putting off it so easy when I have played at MPCC.  It has its weak points like all other grasses...slow to wake up and start growing at the beginning of the season.  Seems like it never really did its thing until the weather was at its absolute worst for bentgrass.  I guess what I am trying to say is for me the jury is still out on the diamond zoysia from a maintenance standpoint but speaking as a golfer I like very much the way it plays. 
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

John Shimp

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #128 on: October 28, 2010, 01:33:28 PM »
Thanks Matt. Great reply.

I was at Quail last Friday and worked at the short game area a bit and noticed that the greens looked different but didn't realize they were... 

Zoysia certainly seems to be taking off as a tee box grass in the carolinas if nothing else.  Clearly it is used heavily in TN and GA and maybe a lot of other states that I am not aware of.

Jamey Bryan

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #129 on: October 28, 2010, 09:06:38 PM »
I have to chime in and congratulate Ed, Roger, et. al. for a superbly organized and orchestrated event.  The courses were outstanding and interesting to compare architecturally and in playing, and the social side events were beyond compare.  Thank goodness Camden hosted last year and we don't need to rise to the new standard!

Since no one else has mentioned it, I thought it was particularly interesting to play 3 Ross courses.....   1 with minimal restoration work (Mimosa Hills), 2 with major renovations but with different architects (Carolina by Spence and Charlotte by Pritchard), and an early Maples (which might as well be a Ross with sand faced bunkers).  I'm still sifting the differences around in my mind.

Again, thanks to everyone who made this happen.  I think Ran may be overrun with requests for "membership" from my buds in the Camden snack bar.....

Jamey

Mike Hamilton

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2010, 03:01:42 PM »

Since no one else has mentioned it, I thought it was particularly interesting to play 3 Ross courses.....   1 with minimal restoration work (Mimosa Hills), 2 with major renovations but with different architects (Carolina by Spence and Charlotte by Pritchard), and an early Maples (which might as well be a Ross with sand faced bunkers).  I'm still sifting the differences around in my mind.


This was a great treat, especially since I had little prior experience with Ross' work.  One thing that I really appreciated was in general how much latitude you had off the tee on most holes over the 3 Ross courses.  I was very intrigued at how many different looks there were to the choice between play safe / tough approach or play aggressive /set up a better approach.  One hole that did seem a bit out of character to me was...oddly enough the absolute final hole at CGC.  The safe play of the tee appears to be along the right side of the fairway, which also sets you up for a safe angle into the green.  Playing from the Blue tees, I ran the ball down the hill and had a pretty easy wedge in.  Carl Johnson warned me that a slightly pulled ball easily find th water, so maybe the safe play is top of the hill?

All were great courses, I also loved the conditions at CGC and the ability to easily putt off the green, and also disagree with Roger in that CGC is a great walk.

Thanks again!

Brent Hutto

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2010, 03:11:27 PM »
Mike,

I had no good image in mind of how the tee shot of the eighteenth was supposed to play (from way up at the white tees). I hit my tee shot farther left than I meant to and it ended up rolling all the way down to within a dozen yards of reaching the water, just off the fairway and into the rough. It left a very short approach shot.

So for us distance-challenged type one "strategy" is to try and get as much roll down that left side as possible and the shortest possible club into the green. Which does mean bringing the water into play. But when it works out right there's nothing like have a very short iron into the green on a medium-length Par 4! I missed the green anyway and lipped out my par putt...so much for strategy.

Carl Johnson

Re: Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?
« Reply #132 on: October 31, 2010, 07:20:32 PM »

Since no one else has mentioned it, I thought it was particularly interesting to play 3 Ross courses.....   1 with minimal restoration work (Mimosa Hills), 2 with major renovations but with different architects (Carolina by Spence and Charlotte by Pritchard), and an early Maples (which might as well be a Ross with sand faced bunkers).  I'm still sifting the differences around in my mind.


This was a great treat, especially since I had little prior experience with Ross' work.  One thing that I really appreciated was in general how much latitude you had off the tee on most holes over the 3 Ross courses.  I was very intrigued at how many different looks there were to the choice between play safe / tough approach or play aggressive /set up a better approach.  One hole that did seem a bit out of character to me was...oddly enough the absolute final hole at CGC.  The safe play of the tee appears to be along the right side of the fairway, which also sets you up for a safe angle into the green.  Playing from the Blue tees, I ran the ball down the hill and had a pretty easy wedge in.  Carl Johnson warned me that a slightly pulled ball easily find th water, so maybe the safe play is top of the hill?

All were great courses, I also loved the conditions at CGC and the ability to easily putt off the green, and also disagree with Roger in that CGC is a great walk.

Thanks again!

Mike and Brent,

Regarding the 18th hole at Carolina.  First, keep in mind that under what we at the club believe to be the original Ross hole sequencing, this hole was number 13 (see my post about the sequencing above).  Second, the earliest layout drawing we have with Ross's name on it shows no pond to the right of the green.  Third, on this same drawing, the tee for the hole is shown further to the right, next to the 17th (today) green, and the centerline of the hole was a dogleg right rather than left.  When I joined the club 15 years ago the tee was close to the 17th green, as on the Ross drawing, but I recall the hole as being rather straight, not a dogleg right.  The Ross drawing also shows a very narrow fairway (with the right side being rough rather than water) before the green, suggesting that a layup on the second would have been tricky.  In other words, a layup today looks easier than it would have been in the early days.  Fourth, during my 15 years at the club, what is now 18 (and always 18 for me) has been revised at least three times.  Others  may have better memories or records than I do, but in my opinion No. 18 has been monkeyed with more in the past 15 years than any other hole on the course (save possibly the par 3 16th).  Apart from changes to the green, the fairway at the bottom of the hill in front of the green has been both wide, narrowed (with a "stream" running across it from the right to left pond) and widened again.  Fifth, the degree of the slope has been changed, maybe more than once.  Sixth . . . I won't even go into the "tree" changes on the hole.  The point of all this is to say that the resemblence between the hole as it exists today (including its sequence), and original Ross version, is . . . not known for sure . . . but they are clearly not the same hole in sequence and only partially the same holes otherwise.  So, we cannot attribute 18 solely to Ross.

As to how to play the hole, something I have come to appreciate is that there are many different ways to play it, depending on how far you can hit the ball, how straight you can hit the ball, how much you like the "strategy game," your fear of water, and the type of approach shot you like to make.  In my opinion the two best options: (1) skilled player lays up at the top of the hill with an iron; (2) less skilled player plays down the right with a driver or three wood, ending up closer to the green, but with more risk involved, than the more skilled player.  If you (less skilled) "hit a good one," the slope of the hill (speed slot or whatever) will carry you closer to the green, with no water to carry on your second, than hitting to the left and hoping you come up short of the pond.  But that's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 07:24:12 PM by Carl Johnson »

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