Dixie Cup 2010 - The Best Dixie Cup To Date?

[Cory Lewis]

Many thanks to Ed, Roger and Mike for a fantastic Dixie Cup.  The golf, food, and company were all great.  It was a pleasure to meet new people and catch up with old friends.  Great job guys!

[JC Jones]

What Ed and Roger did for this Dixie Cup was nothing short of first class.  Great to see everyone and meet new people. 

[Matt MacIver]

My first Dixie Cup - I'm hoping it's not my last - thanks to Ed, Roger, all the host courses and Members and everyone else that lent a hand in making this a first-class weekend.  How did you dial up that weather?!  Fantastic!  PO

[Mike Hamilton]

I also want to thank Ed, Roger, and Mike for this outstanding weekend.  This was my first GCA event and the hospitality, golf, and food were outstanding.  In addition, thanks to Tommy Hunter of Charlotte Country Club and Carl Johnson of Carolina.  I was fortunate to play Thursday at Charlotte with Tommy and today at Carolina with Carl, and they were great hosts and enthusiastically explained the details of the restoration work at each club.

Thanks again!

[Ed Oden]

Thanks for all the kind words.  Roger and I are just glad everyone enjoyed themselves.  We had a lot of fun too.  It was nice to finally put some faces to names.  Thanks to all of you for making our job so easy.  

Now, I've just got to share these images to those unfortunate souls who did not attend.  You missed one of the most spectacular sunrises I have ever seen this morning at Carolina...

[Bruce Wellmon]

Thanks to all. My first GCA event. First Dixie Cup.
                   "Y'all done good."

Same view as Ed's sunrise pic. The view we had post round.

[John Shimp]

What were participants reactions to the golf courses?  Maybe its a little early given that its only Monday.

[Brent Hutto]

My initial reaction to Carolina Golf Club was a desire to get back in my car this morning and drive up there for another round. It's a real wonderland with its uphill approach shots, false fronts and wonderfully firm green approaches and surrounds. One of those courses where with the hole cut up front and you hit an approach shot into the middle of the green, it spins back 20 or 30 yards down into the fairway and you realize the chip is easier than the putt you would have had after a "perfect" approach.

I also enjoyed hitting iron shots off the unusually firm and tight fairway lies. And the vistas on view throughout the course are marvelous. Plenty of trees to define playing corridors where appropriate and offer a sense of perspective but your view of other holes is never really blocked. And there are a couple places where several holes come together and you encounter other groups playing a few holes ahead of behind, which is always a treat at a Dixie Cup venue.

My only complaint about CGC is that for some reason this was the first time I'd made the 85-minute drive there from my house. A severe and unforgivable oversight that will not be repeated in the future.

[Evan Fleisher]

Okay dudes...have at it!  Here is my full compliment of photos from the weekend:

http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/evanjill/Dixie%20Cup%20VII/

A great time was had by all (would you expect anything less from this group?).  This was my first Dixie Cup and it was first class all the way.  Many thanks go out to the organizers including Mike Whitaker (who graciously kicked my butt at CGC on Sunday), Ed Oden, and Roger Wolfe for putting together an outstanding rota of courses and for CGC for hosting us on Friday night and all day Sunday.

I've been to numerous sanctioned (and un-sanctioned) GCA events and they never seem to dissapoint.  The cameraderie, the golf, the stories, etc. are always top notch and memorable.  Make sure to check out the last few photos for a picture of the 18th at CGC showing both our own Joel Zuckerman and ESPN's Jay Bilas walking up to the green...the size difference in the two players looks pretty funny.

BTW...for those of you that left CGC "early", we got to see someone (a member most likely) hole out on the fly on 18 for a smooth "2".  Cool stuff!

[Mark Pritchett]

I would like to thank Mike, Ed and Roger for their efforts in making this Dixie Cup such a success.  Also, special thanks to Kris Spence for taking the time to visit with us Saturday night to discuss his current and recent projects. 

I hope to get some pictures posted soon.

[Michael Whitaker]

Man, was I impressed with the Carolina Golf Club course! I hope we have some detailed discussion about the individual holes as this course deserves more recognition. I can't thank Roger and Ed enough for making it possible for our merry band of misfits to see this gem.

And, what about the outstanding work Kris Spence has done at Gason and Mimosa Hills? There is quality golf to be had at those courses and I enjoyed both immensely. Again, I hope we will discuss specific holes and features we encountered there.

I'm very impressed with Kris Spence and his work. I hope he gets an opportunity to do something from scratch. Kris definitely has the head and heart for great golf architecture. His work at the three courses we played was nothing short of spectacular, especially given the constraints he had to work with in most cases. I want to see more! 

This might have been the best Dixie Cup ever! From the quality of the courses, to the weather, to the social gatherings, to the food... Everything was nearly perfect!

I'd like to do it all over again this weekend!!!

[Brent Hutto]

Roger's favorite hole location on the seventh green is a real treat. Especially as it occurs right where multiple groups cross paths because the routing comes together at that point. Ideal Dixie Cup conditions!

The genius of that front-left location is that anywhere to the right of the hole (toward the center of the green) the green feeds back down into the fairway. Yet just to the left of the hole (between the hole and the edge of the green) is an area where putts from above, below or from the right will stop without rolling off the false front. But it's a small area and if you overshoot it slightly you're in trouble anyway. Aiming for the flag from the fairway has a large chance of putting you off the green to the left and that is virtually "dead" in terms of getting a chip shot close to the hole (or even keeping it on the green). If you miss long straight behind the hole it's a terribly tricky putt but long and over toward the center of the green lets you feed a lag putt down into that little zone I mentioned just left of the hole. And if you come up short and stay down in the fairway the apron is firm and fast enough to have a straight-ish putt even from 50, 60, 70 feet away.

Then you get to play the eighth hole which seems an ideal length and perfectly situated along the side of a ridge, uphill to the green and curving gently left (or at least I remember a slight leftward curve, maybe that's just a function of the sidehill and the big fairway bunker on the left). But the green is flatter than most, although small, and offers a chance to make a putt once you get there. Lovely, well proportioned hole.

Skipping forward to the tenth, how about that pin placement gentlemen? That little tabletop back center of the green is genius, not only does it take an absolutely brilliant shot to get your ball atop the table (on about a 400-yard hole!) but even if you have a 4, 5, 6 foot putt from the same level as the hole there's still enough break that you may have to play it outside the cup. But the "wings" to the left and right of the back half of the green are just large and receptive enough to make getting a ball on the green per se quite doable. So you get a lot of tricky pace-judgment lag putt up onto the tabletop and then little breaking second putts that will lip out on you, believe you me.

Is it the very next hole with the tee shot over the ridge and then a short iron or wedge off the downslope to a beautifully situated green? I think that's the eleventh, what a nice hole and a change of pace from the number of uphill approach shots you've faced to that point in the round. My only quibble with the routing is that following this hole with the short-iron Par 3 next hole makes you feel a little like you've played the same hole twice in a row.

To me that's the best stretch of holes at CGC, the seventh through the twelfth. Not that those are the only great holes on the course but there's really no letdown at any point during the six-hole stretch. Even the rather ordinary Par 3 ninth has one of the few true two-tier greens on the course.

[Carl Johnson]

Roger's favorite hole location on the seventh green [at Carolina GC] is a real treat. Especially as it occurs right where multiple groups cross paths because the routing comes together at that point. Ideal Dixie Cup conditions!

The genius of that front-left location is that anywhere to the right of the hole (toward the center of the green) the green feeds back down into the fairway. Yet just to the left of the hole (between the hole and the edge of the green) is an area where putts from above, below or from the right will stop without rolling off the false front. But it's a small area and if you overshoot it slightly you're in trouble anyway. Aiming for the flag from the fairway has a large chance of putting you off the green to the left and that is virtually "dead" in terms of getting a chip shot close to the hole (or even keeping it on the green). If you miss long straight behind the hole it's a terribly tricky putt but long and over toward the center of the green lets you feed a lag putt down into that little zone I mentioned just left of the hole. And if you come up short and stay down in the fairway the apron is firm and fast enough to have a straight-ish putt even from 50, 60, 70 feet away.  [Comment from Carolina member and CGA Dixie Cupper Carl Johnson: CGC players familiar with this location have a tremendous home couse advantage here against the first time visitor.]

Then you get to play the eighth hole which seems an ideal length and perfectly situated along the side of a ridge, uphill to the green and curving gently left (or at least I remember a slight leftward curve, maybe that's just a function of the sidehill and the big fairway bunker on the left).  [CJ: You are correct.  It does curve left.  I think it is a relatively "easy" hole for the average player if played smart.]  But the green is flatter than most, although small, and offers a chance to make a putt once you get there. Lovely, well proportioned hole.

Skipping forward to the tenth, how about that pin placement gentlemen? That little tabletop back center of the green is genius, not only does it take an absolutely brilliant shot to get your ball atop the table (on about a 400-yard hole!) but even if you have a 4, 5, 6 foot putt from the same level as the hole there's still enough break that you may have to play it outside the cup. But the "wings" to the left and right of the back half of the green are just large and receptive enough to make getting a ball on the green per se quite doable. So you get a lot of tricky pace-judgment lag putt up onto the tabletop and then little breaking second putts that will lip out on you, believe you me. [CJ: I like the green, but many members do not (particularly with the pin on the table)  If you are short of the green in two, as I usually am, often intentionally, a chip or putt to the table from the fairway takes a lot of skill.  Again, a member has a real advantage over a first-timer here.]

Is it the very next hole with the tee shot over the ridge and then a short iron or wedge off the downslope to a beautifully situated green? I think that's the eleventh [CJ: You are correct, it is 11], what a nice hole and a change of pace from the number of uphill approach shots you've faced to that point in the round. My only quibble with the routing is that following this hole with the short-iron Par 3 next hole makes you feel a little like you've played the same hole twice in a row.  [CJ: I respectively disagree.  The short par 3 No. 12 is slightly up hill to a blind green surface.  Nos. 11 and 12 together provide a nice break before the final six holes.  By the way, and you may already know this, before the renovation the green on No. 11 was at the bottom of the hill immediately behind the "creek."  A fair amount of dirt was moved by Kris Spence to raise the green to it's current location near the top of the hill.  I am not alone among members who believe that although the No. 11 green appears simple, it is one of the hardest on the course to read.]

To me that's the best stretch of holes at CGC, the seventh through the twelfth. Not that those are the only great holes on the course but there's really no letdown at any point during the six-hole stretch. Even the rather ordinary Par 3 ninth has one of the few true two-tier greens on the course.

Brent: Thanks for your comments and kind words.  Any thoughts on how the overall routing works, with the fit of the holes, by D. Ross, into a very small piece of property?  Carl

[Bill_McBride]

I LOVED the routing at CGC, especially the way the 15th hole is woven in between the 4th and 5th to get you headed back toward the clubhouse.  That series of parallel holes could have been a bit boring if they each hadn't been so different in their own way.  I admired the nest of bunkers that separated the 6th and 7th fairways and were in play on both holes, sort of like the famous Church Pew bunkers at Oakmont. 

The 7th green had the pin cut in an almost impossible location for the first time player, but I did see a CGC member eke out a snowman there.  I found the close proximity of the 6th tee and 7th green highly amusing, as you waited for the group on the 7th green to (eventually) putt out!

I would be happy to be a member of Carolina Golf Club, it would be a fun home course. 

I'm not sure what needs to be done to #11, it may be just a case of playing it enough to know how to deal with the wetland.  There needs to be some sort of hazard down there, or the flat bellies would just bash it the bottom and flip a wedge up to the green.

Thank you Roger and Ed for all the great organizing of golf and evening events.  I agree with Mike Whitaker, this may well have been the best Dixie Cup ever.  They have raised the bar considerably!  And thanks as well to Kris Spence, for his interesting talk Saturday night as well as for the marvelous restorative work on the three courses we played.

[Steve Wilson]

Firstly, all praise to Roger Wolfe and Ed Oden for a superbly planned and perfectly executed Dixie Cup. 

In the same vein, thanks to all the private clubs who so graciously allowed member of the tree house to come to earth on their grounds.  I want to mention the member at Charlotte, Tommy Hunter who accompanied Mike Hamilton, Kenny Baer and me around the course.  He couldn’t have been more gracious and knowledgeable about this architecture and changes to Charlotte Country Club.   During the cookout after the round, when it was determined he was an occasional lurker at GCA  some of the GCA cognoscenti  (Whitaker, McBride, Disher) tried to recruit him for a Buda in the coming years.

Golf coursewise,  one theme I picked up was uphill par fives on the back nines of Ross courses with center line bunkering.  The 12th at Charlotte, the 13th at Carolina and the 14th at Mimosa Hills.  The 12th at Charlotte presented a blind tee shot to a long plateau that was neatly bisected by the single bunker that loitered just where I would like to have landed my second shot.  The green itself was heavily bunkered and angled at a left to right bias.  Due to the single fairway bunker there was not a shot on the hole that wasn’t without interest.   Longer hitters might not have to concern themselves with that bunker, but I did.

Moving on Mimosa Hills, the 14th featured a  downhill tee shot to a valley  that abruptly started climbing for the final half to two thirds of the hole’s length.  Tree growth required  the tee ball to be kept  center or right hand side.  Too far right, I speak from experience, presented a seriously side hill lie.  The bunkers that complicated the second shot were deep, rugged and created a line of charm from right to left.   As a last dollop of architecture a large dead mammal was buried on the right hand side of the green.

The 13th at Carolina was a hole I had heard a great deal about before I played it.  At Friday night’s oyster roast I strolled into a spirited discussion between GCA’s own Carl Johnson and a member who shall remain nameless.  They were debating the merits of the fairway bunkers.  The unnamed member didn’t like the bunkers because they were on the shortest direct line to the hole.   His perfect drive, down the middle and long enough to reach the green in two would instead, be  bunkered.   I’ll let Carl describe the hole as he clearly has more experience, greater familiarity and a high degree of fondness for it.

Other impressions:

 I saw two really fine rounds.  Brad Tufts’ 72 at Gastonia.  I truly appreciated it as I was his partner.  The other was  Jamey Bryant’s 77 at Carolina.  I didn’t appreciate it quite as much as he was administering a 4 & 2 beating on me.

Between the 7th green and 8th tee at Mimosa there were a couple of persimmon trees.  Craig Disher called my attention to them and three of the four I ate were as sweet as candy.  The outlier in the quartet reminded me why you take small bites of persimmons to test the waters.   Can anyone say alum. One of the employees at Mimosa happened by as we were plucking the fruit.  He told us it was one of the most popular spots on the course at this time of year.

Still at Mimosa, the first par five on the back—I think it’s the 12th has, in my eyes, the most wonderful green site of all four courses. Only a photograph can do it justice.  I have one but can’t post it just yet.

I didn’t know how well I liked steamed oysters until Friday night.

I learned that Roger Wolfe has often played and shared my enthusiasm for Preston Country Club in Kingwood WV.

I learned that Jamey Bryant has played Clarksburg Country Club which is another of my frequent haunts.

I learned that the water hazard fronting the 1st at Gastonia CC is inhabited by benevolent, discriminating water spirits.  They rejected Jamey’s ball and threw it to the side of the green and they were so sympathetic to  my feeble effort they tossed it on the green within birdie (which I, alas, missed) distance.

Chris Spence delivered an unscripted and engrossing hour long talk at Belle Acres CC on Saturday night.  His account of reversing the routing of a course (someone will supply the name) was very funny and enlightening.  All the while he was telling I was trying to think how would describe someone who would have originally built a course backwards.  A perverse genius, dyslexic? 
 I once read a piece by Peter Dobereiner in which he described playing an out of the way course in Ireland where all the tees were round and all the greens square.   His opinion was that someone who nothing of golf had been the builder and simply got the prints backwards.

The vistas at Carolina CC are remarkable as are the clustered tees and green sites.  An intimate routing provides the ability to see fellow sufferers at all stages of the round.   The former putting green where events are now held at Carolina is as superb a vantage point (check out Bruce Wellmon’s photograph) as I’ve ever experienced.

More later.

[Bill_McBride]

Firstly, all praise to Roger Wolfe and Ed Oden for a superbly planned and perfectly executed Dixie Cup. 

In the same vein, thanks to all the private clubs who so graciously allowed member of the tree house to come to earth on their grounds.  I want to mention the member at Charlotte, Tommy Hunter who accompanied Mike Hamilton, Kenny Baer and me around the course.  He couldn’t have been more gracious and knowledgeable about this architecture and changes to Charlotte Country Club.   During the cookout after the round, when it was determined he was an occasional lurker at GCA  some of the GCA cognoscenti  (Whitaker, McBride, Disher) tried to recruit him for a Buda in the coming years.

Does the word "cogoscenti" have anything to do with sore feet and tired legs?  After the Dixie Cup I literally could not hit the ball on Monday!

Golf coursewise,  one theme I picked up was uphill par fives on the back nines of Ross courses with center line bunkering. 

The 13th at Carolina was a hole I had heard a great deal about before I played it.  At Friday night’s oyster roast I strolled into a spirited discussion between GCA’s own Carl Johnson and a member who shall remain nameless.  They were debating the merits of the fairway bunkers.  The unnamed member didn’t like the bunkers because they were on the shortest direct line to the hole.   His perfect drive, down the middle and long enough to reach the green in two would instead, be  bunkered.   I’ll let Carl describe the hole as he clearly has more experience, greater familiarity and a high degree of fondness for it.

Interestingly, when you knew you couldn't carry that pair of centerline bunkers, your shot safely out to the right presented you with the best possible angle into the green!  Safely challenging the bunkers under those circumstances would yield an approach over a deep greenside bunker.

The vistas at Carolina CC are remarkable as are the clustered tees and green sites.  An intimate routing provides the ability to see fellow sufferers at all stages of the round. 

This was particularly cool standing patiently on the 6th tee, waiting to drive until the unfortunates on the 7th green were finished dealing with the false front and front pin over there less than 20 yards away!   

More later.

[Brent Hutto]

 Any thoughts on how the overall routing works, with the fit of the holes, by D. Ross, into a very small piece of property?

Carl,

Nothing about the round of golf per se (the golf shots) felt the least bit constrained. There is just acres of either short grass or long grass out there for your ball to end up in. Ideally the short grass! And with so many of the trees removed, you can pretty much count the rough on one or two adjacent holes as being part of the acceptable-miss area available.

But the biggest factor is probably the scale of the holes in terms of contours. Almost every hole has some movement to the ground and very little of it feels like a sharp turn or abrupt change of level. When my eye sees one large-scale complex curve after another, hole after hole, it's hard for my brain to come away with the impression that I've played a small course.

Put what looks like the same routing from an overhead view on a flattish piece of property, then line each hole with a nigh-impenetrable wall of trees on each side and perhaps you'd walk off feeling like you'd been steering the ball through a twisty, narrow, tight course. But Carolina plays much bigger than its acreage. The cost of course is paid by your feet, knees and back if you walk the course. All that up-and-down takes it toll and it is not a piece of property I'd want to walk twice in a day. But a lot of hilly courses seem tighter because their hilly nature, at CGC it seems quite the opposite. It's a nice trick of routing although I suspect the devil is in the details more than the overall plan view of the course.

[Roger Wolfe]

I tried to warn everyone that CGC's walk was great for exercise aficionados only.  As perfect as the walk is at Gaston, Charlotte
and Mimosa... CGC can be tough due to the fact #4, #5, #6, #7, #17, #18 all play back and forth across a valley.  #11 and #13 share a creek while #3 and #18 share low spots as well.  Probably the evilest feature is the walk up the hill from #18.  The clubhouse sits high on the hill and you can see parts of every single hole except for #9 when the leaves are down.

So... when I read Hutto and McBride's comments... this might be one of few examples where walking actually hindered everyone's ability to enjoy the architecture.  Next time you play we will ride... I promise not to tell anyone!

[Bill_McBride]

I tried to warn everyone that CGC's walk was great for exercise aficionados only.  As perfect as the walk is at Gaston, Charlotte
and Mimosa... CGC can be tough due to the fact #4, #5, #6, #7, #17, #18 all play back and forth across a valley.  #11 and #13 share a creek while #3 and #18 share low spots as well.  Probably the evilest feature is the walk up the hill from #18.  The clubhouse sits high on the hill and you can see parts of every single hole except for #9 when the leaves are down.

So... when I read Hutto and McBride's comments... this might be one of few examples where walking actually hindered everyone's ability to enjoy the architecture.  Next time you play we will ride... I promise not to tell anyone!

Thanks for carrying me Monday!

[Carl Johnson]

I will try to respond to a number of questions raised above by DC participants.  First, for reference the original layout of the restoration is at https://carolinagolfclub.memberstatements.com/Clubs/CSGCarolina/Uploaded/CalendarPics/Web%20Site%20Docs/Spence%20Master%20Plan.pdf.  During the restoration process two holes were changed.  In the layout, the number 13 green is shown both where it was pre-restoration and as originally planned by Spence in the restoration.  During the work, Spence decided the 13th green should be moved to the left, where the number 11 tees are shown.  So, the no. 13 greenside and cross-fronting bunkers are now different than shown on this diagram. In turn, the number 11 tee was moved to the right of the no. 10 green, making 11 a gentle dogleg.  For more restoration, go to the club website, https://carolinagolfclub.memberstatements.com/login/login.cfm?destination, and click on Club Info and then Capital Updates and Docs.  You view all of the documents without logging in as a member.  As far as I know, the final layout of the restored course, with the in-process changes to 11 and 13, is not on the website.

Regarding the routing and hole sequencing in general, which to me means two different things, the routing is essentially the initial Ross routing with the exception of new 1 and 2, which bear the same general relationship to the rest of the course as the former 1 and 2.  However, the earliest hole sequencing I am aware of is based on the fact the original clubhouse (described by old timers variously as a log cabin or barn) was just off Donald Ross Road, approximately where the on-course stone covered restroom facility is now.  The holes began and finished at the club house as follows:  First the "original" hole and second the current hole (same as when I joined the club 15 years ago and keeping in mind that new 1 and 2 are to the left of the driving range where pre-restoration 1 and 2 used to be).  I would like to say that the current routing results from the location of the current clubhouse, which was built after the club converted from public to private in the late 1950s:

Original Ross Hole Number       Current Hole Number

1 - 7
2 - 6
3 - 5
4 - 8
5 - 9
6 - 1
7 - 2
8 - 3
9 - 4
10 15
11 - 16
12 - 17
13 - 18
14 - 10
15 - 11
16 - 12
17 - 13
18 - 14

I have been told by old-timers that between these two sequences, there have been others.

From Bill McBride: "I LOVED the routing at CGC, especially the way the 15th hole is woven in between the 4th and 5th to get you headed back toward the clubhouse."  Note that this is not the original Ross sequencing as explained above.  The sacrifice, in the view of some (not including me), is that the movement from 4 green to 5 tee, on the far side of 15 tee, is awkward.  In connection with the restoration, a process I was not actively involved with, my understanding was that various other hole sequencings were explored.  Including playing what is now the back nine first, then playing number 3 (now and before) as 10, then the rest of the front nine in sequence, and finishing with new 1 as 17 and new 2 as 18.  In the end, it was decided the best option was to stay with the pre-restoration sequence.

From Bill McBride: "That series of parallel holes could have been a bit boring if they each hadn't been so different in their own way."  Kris Spence made then as different as he could.  That is a real plus of the renovation.  Pre-renovation (but probably not precisely like the original Ross holes) they were much more the same as each other.

From Bill McBride:  "I admired the nest of bunkers that separated the 6th and 7th fairways and were in play on both holes, sort of like the famous Church Pew bunkers at Oakmont."  Interesting how, from the 6th tee, you can see all of these bunkers and point them out to visitors, tell them that on the 7th tee they will not be able to see them, again on the 7th tee remind them that they are still there, and yet the visitors still hit into the bunkers.

I am going to resume in a separate post.  I don't want to be timed out on this one.  Carl

[rjsimper]

Where did Monday players play?

Add me to the chorus of grateful attendees - fantastic work by Roger and Ed.

Something not often mentioned...nice work with the lodging. For $69 bucks a night, the Hyatt Place was a steal. I know that Pritchett appreciated the fact that it was next door to Jocks & Jills.

To me, Carolina was the highlight of the trip. Even aside from its history, I loved the look, the layout, and the challenges that the green complexes presented. Couple this with the perspective offered by Kris Spence and hearing that Carolina wasn't always so highly regarded amongst area clubs and what they have there now is downright amazing.

The social aspect of the course has already been mentioned, but I think it's worth repeating. As a club and/or a venue for a large group, I don't know how it could be better. Playing in the first group, you get to see the 4th or 5th group tee off as you finish up the 2nd green. We must have come across fellow Dixie Cuppers at least 6-7 different times - 7th green, 15th green, some of the parallel fairways, etc. I don't know that I'd be able to chalk this up in the course's favor from a design perspective, but it's certainly fun.

I am already looking forward to next year - The Charlotte edition will be a tough one to top!

[rjsimper]

We played the tips - I assume the same is true from the other sets of tees.

I thought this was pretty cool. Not playing with a member, we were left to figure out the ideal line of play on 7 on our own. I pulled my drive by 5-10 yards....still a good shot.

When I got up to the fairway, I realized that the bunkers visible from the tee were only a fraction of the challenge. My ball was in the very left edge of the fairway with a great look at the green, but I am certain that to get there, it must have landed in the rough, between the last two fairway bunkers, and safely jumped out into the short grass.

In the future I would play 15-20 yards right of where I had tried on my first play.

From Bill McBride:  "I admired the nest of bunkers that separated the 6th and 7th fairways and were in play on both holes, sort of like the famous Church Pew bunkers at Oakmont."  Interesting how, from the 6th tee, you can see all of these bunkers and point them out to visitors, tell them that on the 7th tee they will not be able to see them, again on the 7th tee remind them that they are still there, and yet the visitors still hit into the bunkers.

I am going to resume in a separate post.  I don't want to be timed out on this one.  Carl

[Carl Johnson]

More commentary from Carl Johnson:

From Bill McBride: "I'm not sure what needs to be done to #11, it may be just a case of playing it enough to know how to deal with the wetland.  There needs to be some sort of hazard down there, or the flat bellies would just bash it the bottom and flip a wedge up to the green."  In my experience this is not going to happen.  The "wetlands," although not wet now, is still a hazard (various wetland plants).  I do not know anyone who would intentionally try to hit to bottom and risk going into the hazard.  Long hitters, including the Quail Hollow qualifiers that I saw, try to lay up at the top of the hill, from which spot they still have relatively short shot to the green.

From Steve Wilson: "The 13th at Carolina was a hole I had heard a great deal about before I played it.  At Friday night’s oyster roast I strolled into a spirited discussion between GCA’s own Carl Johnson and a member who shall remain nameless.  They were debating the merits of the fairway bunkers.  The unnamed member didn’t like the bunkers because they were on the shortest direct line to the hole.   His perfect drive, down the middle and long enough to reach the green in two would instead, be  bunkered.   I’ll let Carl describe the hole as he clearly has more experience, greater familiarity and a high degree of fondness for it."  I cannot add much about this shortish par 5.  This member is about a 10 handicapper, age late 50s probably, and a friend of mine.  He does not like bunkers placed where he might hit into them.  He knows the can avoid trouble by going 3 iron off the tee, to be safe, then laying up with a five or six iron, pitching on and two putting for a par.  Howerver, the wants an easier route for a bird than what Spence has given him, which is to hit to the right of the bunkers with a driver.  What can I say?

From Brent Hutto: Nothing about the round of golf per se (the golf shots) felt the least bit constrained. There is just acres of either short grass or long grass out there for your ball to end up in. Ideally the short grass! And with so many of the trees removed, you can pretty much count the rough on one or two adjacent holes as being part of the acceptable-miss area available.  In my opinion there is some deception here.  Because the course looks so open, a lot of less-than-expert players will bomb away.  However, the rough on adjacent holes may not always be as an acceptable-miss area as it might first appear.  The hole's fairway is a much, much better place to be than the rough (or even fairway) on an adjacent hole.

From Brent Hutto: "But the biggest factor is probably the scale of the holes in terms of contours. Almost every hole has some movement to the ground and very little of it feels like a sharp turn or abrupt change of level. When my eye sees one large-scale complex curve after another, hole after hole, it's hard for my brain to come away with the impression that I've played a small course.  Put what looks like the same routing from an overhead view on a flattish piece of property, then line each hole with a nigh-impenetrable wall of trees on each side and perhaps you'd walk off feeling like you'd been steering the ball through a twisty, narrow, tight course. But Carolina plays much bigger than its acreage."  Originally the course was virtually treeless.  It was built by Ross on a former dairy farm.  Over the years tree plantings resulted in exactly the environment that Brent describes: " . . . then line each hole with a nigh-impenetrable wall of trees on each side and perhaps you'd walk off feeling like you'd been steering the ball through a twisty, narrow, tight course . . . .  But a lot of hilly courses seem tighter because their hilly nature, at CGC it seems quite the opposite. It's a nice trick of routing although I suspect the devil is in the details more than the overall plan view of the course."  The restoration opened things up again -- not to the dairy farm level, but at least enough to bring back the scale -- and if by "details" you mean making and keeping the course relatively open, then the details are a significant part of it, in my opinion.

From Roger Wolfe:  "Probably the evilest feature is the walk up the hill from #18 [green back to the clubhouse]."  That is why CGC's long-range plan includes the installation of either an all-weather escalator or chair lift to cover this ground.  (Just kidding.)

[Bill_McBride]

More commentary from Carl Johnson:

From Bill McBride: "I'm not sure what needs to be done to #11, it may be just a case of playing it enough to know how to deal with the wetland.  There needs to be some sort of hazard down there, or the flat bellies would just bash it the bottom and flip a wedge up to the green."  In my experience this is not going to happen.  The "wetlands," although not wet now, is still a hazard (various wetland plants).  I do not know anyone who would intentionally try to hit to bottom and risk going into the hazard.  Long hitters, including the Quail Hollow qualifiers that I saw, try to lay up at the top of the hill, from which spot they still have relatively short shot to the green.

Carl, I was actually thinking more of the shorter hitters who CAN'T consistently drive to the end of the flat fairway, before the steep drop off.  The seemingly irreconcilable challenges are to (1) challenge the bomb and gouge crowd who want to drive to the bottom, and (2) provide the short knockers a lay up that isn't going to typically run down the hill into trouble.

Thanks for taking time to respond to our comments and questions.  As you can tell, the GCAers were quite impressed with Carolina Golf Club.

[Carl Johnson]

More commentary from Carl Johnson:

From Bill McBride: "I'm not sure what needs to be done to #11, it may be just a case of playing it enough to know how to deal with the wetland.  There needs to be some sort of hazard down there, or the flat bellies would just bash it the bottom and flip a wedge up to the green."  In my experience this is not going to happen.  The "wetlands," although not wet now, is still a hazard (various wetland plants).  I do not know anyone who would intentionally try to hit to bottom and risk going into the hazard.  Long hitters, including the Quail Hollow qualifiers that I saw, try to lay up at the top of the hill, from which spot they still have relatively short shot to the green.

Carl, I was actually thinking more of the shorter hitters who CAN'T consistently drive to the end of the flat fairway, before the steep drop off.  The seemingly irreconcilable challenges are to (1) challenge the bomb and gouge crowd who want to drive to the bottom, and (2) provide the short knockers a lay up that isn't going to typically run down the hill into trouble.

Bill, I think that the trick is to play from the "correct" set of tees.  Early in the restoration process I remarked to Roger that I thought this hole would be very difficult off the tee, for the reasons you point out.  However, Roger's response was that he did not think it would be if you played from the "correct" set of tees.  Having played the hole for two years now, I agree with Roger.  The principal difficulty off the tee is that the safe driving (tee-ball) lane is very narrow, given the trees on the far left and and the slope of the fairway left to right.  Obviously, you have to play this hole a number of times to get the feel for it.  Once is certainly not enough.  Carl

Although I have not said this before in this thread, this is my first time at a GCA event and I thoroughly enjoyed meeting in person people who before I only had a name for.  Thanks to all of you for traveling to Charlotte.

[Tags:]

Tags: