[JMorgan]

12:50 tee time.  Last time I played BB, after the US Open, found myself on 17 at sunset, summer shower. That's how slow.  (Another thread topic: Lesson in club selection, automatic swing dynamics, and absence of visual cues, as I poked it 8 feet below the pin, positioned just above the ridge dividing upper and lower.) 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I live 30 minutes away and I have better things to do with 6 hours of my time. (like play 2 rounds out east)

Jeff-

  Good point.  Two years ago, the wait for any of the courses was about 1.5 hrs.  I made it from New Hyde Park to Tallgrass, played in 3 hrs (EMPTY on a beautiful May afternoon), and back to NHP in the time it would have taken to go, wait, and maybe play and finish.  BSP is fun to go, but not where it takes that amount of time and/or hassle.

[Tom_Doak]

Back in about 1980 (long before they fixed up the Black), GOLF Magazine for a stunt sent one editor out to Bethpage on a Saturday to wait in line and play ... and sent another editor out to the airport to fly to Bermuda, play Mid Ocean, and fly back home.  The guy who flew to Bermuda was back with a half hour to spare.    Of course that was before 9/11 and airport security ... those were the days!

Matt,

While I understand your point in this thread, I can't believe you are that surprised.  You travel enough (as I do) to know that every local government in America is determined to gouge the visitors as much as possible, as opposed to raising taxes [read my lips!] for the people who might vote them out of office.  I often pay taxes up to EIGHTEEN per cent on rental cars and airport hotels, because those local politicians know I can't vote against them.  [And I am sure that Traverse City would do the same to you!]

Though I doubt that the green fee rates were set by the Governor himself, if they were, it would be no surprise that a Democratic governor in NY figures most of the people who are playing golf at Bethpage are voting for the other guy, anyway.

[Kevin Pallier]

Please enough of the Pebble Beach connection -- PB is a privately held place that provides access to outside play. BB is a taxpayer owned facility -- HUGE difference in terms of presentation, style and clientele.

Matt

I never mentioned about the style of club in relation to PB - I just mentioned the rate one Joe Public can pay to play it.

Seems like there isn't much of a difference after all ?

Bethpage is becoming more and more a de facto private club save for the NYers who can access it via the tee time call in program. The extra $$ may seem insignificant to outsiders who pay as much -- or more -- for wherever they play.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

First, the rate increase: a full 25 percent more for New York residents and non-residents alike to play Bethpage Black Golf Course.

This means NY residents will now pay $65 on weekdays and $75 on weekends (a $15 increase in both cases).

Non-residents must now pay $130 on weekdays and $150 on weekends (a $30 increase in both cases). 

By the way, the fee to reserve a tee time went up, too, from $4 to $5.

No doubt the outsiders will be feeling the pinch.

Matt,

  I remember in '02 and '03, Red still cost less than $40.00 for nonresident weekend play.  Black was $81.00, nonresident, I think.  It was a deal!  The question is, where does it end?  Could you see the fees going up to, say $200-$225 for nonresident weekend?

  I wonder what their numbers look like, for all courses, over the past few years, nonresident/resident, etc.

Personally, that's a lot of money to pay for the amount of waiting that goes on, relative to the golf itself.  Read what I said about Tallgrass.  I love BSP, but, I'm not willing to wait around like that for golf as much anymore.  How about you?

Not apples to apples comparison, but GCGC kind of spoiled me--warm up, go play in about 3-3 1/2hrs, and enjoy the rest of your day.   But, I'm a nonresident, and my tax dollars don't help carry the cost of maintaining the facility.  How do the residents feel about this? 

BTW, and it's not really relevant, but what's the fastest you think a group could play BB, fourball, keeping a good pace but not rushing? Just curious and there's no motive. 

[Jason McNamara]

Though I doubt that the green fee rates were set by the Governor himself, if they were, it would be no surprise that a Democratic governor in NY figures most of the people who are playing golf at Bethpage are voting for the other guy, anyway.

Tom, when you say "the other guy," I think you are referring to another Democrat - Paterson's opposition in the primary.  

Anyway, maybe you can help with this.  Do you happen to have any rough figures on what %age of munis generally break even, or (gasp!) make money.... or is it typically a big enough success just to cover the day-to-day costs after the initial cap investment is "donated" by the relevant authority?

EDIT:  Doug, those numbers mesh with http://www.golfnewyork.com/feature-stories/bethpage-golf-fees-571.htm  Looks like it was 2004 that there was an across-the-board hike averaging 20%, which took fees on the Black to $39 / $49 and $78 / $98. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

I would guess that not many municipal golf courses break even, because like everything else in government, there is no one holding their feet to the fire to stay on budget ... the employees are all civil service [hard to fire, can't cut their pay], and the management just figures the town [or in this case the state] will have to cover whatever the cost overruns.

I would think that Bethpage is on a different program and that there's more pressure to break even.  I would be curious to know from Matt if it's just the Black course where the rates went up 25%, or whether that's across the board.  I suspect Bethpage may be something like St. Andrews or Gullane, where the locals charge the visitors (even in-state visitors) a lot to play the famous course, to subsidize the cost of the others in the complex and keep the rates down for themselves.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Matt Day]

Jason:

I would guess that not many municipal golf courses break even, because like everything else in government, there is no one holding their feet to the fire to stay on budget ... the employees are all civil service [hard to fire, can't cut their pay], and the management just figures the town [or in this case the state] will have to cover whatever the cost overruns.

I would think that Bethpage is on a different program and that there's more pressure to break even.  I would be curious to know from Matt if it's just the Black course where the rates went up 25%, or whether that's across the board.  I suspect Bethpage may be something like St. Andrews or Gullane, where the locals charge the visitors (even in-state visitors) a lot to play the famous course, to subsidize the cost of the others in the complex and keep the rates down for themselves.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Tom
Interesting that break even seems to be a good result, there would be a lot of munis/council run tracks in Australia that make a profit. In Perth in all the council courses ( make a profit of some sort, we're not in the league of Bethpage or Torrey but manage to provide a good product at reasonable price....and my feet are close to the fire most of the time 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Bethpage has turned profits from the day it first opened in 1932 as the single course of the Bethpage Golf Club (the existing Lenox Hills course which they leased through May of 1934. They did so much business in the first month that they announced that they would build a SINGLE new golf course. In the Spring of 1933 when the new years numbers were coming in they announced that they were scrapping the single course idea and were going to build three new ones and redesign the existing course. Moses spent until the end of December getting the money guarantees that he needed to start the project and by February of 1934 nearly 1,200 people were working on the project.

As soon as the Blue course opened in April 1934, the numberss of rounds played skyrocketed again and did so with each new course opening. The park has produced "profits" over expenditures ever since. These monies grew to such an extent that at one time they were used to pay the bills of ENTIRE rest of the budget for the New York State Parks system. Over the years the money has supported many another course in the New York state park system.

What I am most concerned with, and something that no one has mentioned and very few are aware of as yet, is that the Albany "bean counters" are considering REDUCIONG the Bethpage maintenance budget by $2,000,000 per year! (remember it's a big park with 5 courses).

THAT is the biggest issue the New York golfers, along with their out-of-state guests, may have to deal with... 

[Tim Nugent]

Jason:

I would guess that not many municipal golf courses break even, because like everything else in government, there is no one holding their feet to the fire to stay on budget ... the employees are all civil service [hard to fire, can't cut their pay], and the management just figures the town [or in this case the state] will have to cover whatever the cost overruns.

I would think that Bethpage is on a different program and that there's more pressure to break even.  I would be curious to know from Matt if it's just the Black course where the rates went up 25%, or whether that's across the board.  I suspect Bethpage may be something like St. Andrews or Gullane, where the locals charge the visitors (even in-state visitors) a lot to play the famous course, to subsidize the cost of the others in the complex and keep the rates down for themselves.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Tom, oddly enough, it seems (at least around here) that most muni's operate in the black and are a source of revenue that support other park, non-revenue expenses.  Remember, Illinois is a Park District state - seperate from municipalities and even have Forest Preserve districts on the county level.  Many have outsourced their operations to management co's.  When Cook County Prest Preserve district and the Chicago Park district  both did this, they went from the red to the black - overnight! This lends some empirical data to your supposition that Gov. isn't very efffective (they are too big to fail and rely on a Taxpayer Bailout every Apr. 15).  Talk about graft and corruption.  How else could a private entity come in with more expenses ie- insurance, make a fee AND return a profit when a yr before, under Gov. operation, it was run at a loss?  With all else being equal, where was all the money going???  Golf is tricky to police because you are selling time, no inventory to offset.  2 things can happen, 1) cashiers/starters pocket cash greens fees and 2) politically connected or "friends" are let on for free.

Smaller operations seem to have more control even when run by the public sector as the directors know it is a cash cow and they want that money because it allows them to do things that would otherwise require 1) referrendums or 2) a hike in the tax rate - both politically dicey.

[Jud_T]

Jason:

I would guess that not many municipal golf courses break even, because like everything else in government, there is no one holding their feet to the fire to stay on budget ... the employees are all civil service [hard to fire, can't cut their pay], and the management just figures the town [or in this case the state] will have to cover whatever the cost overruns.

Do I detect a closet Libertarian?   

[Jason McNamara]

I would think that Bethpage is on a different program and that there's more pressure to break even.  I would be curious to know from Matt if it's just the Black course where the rates went up 25%, or whether that's across the board.  I suspect Bethpage may be something like St. Andrews or Gullane, where the locals charge the visitors (even in-state visitors) a lot to play the famous course, to subsidize the cost of the others in the complex and keep the rates down for themselves.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Tom, thanks for the feedback on munis.  I realize you didn't ask me this, but since I came across it anyway, here's the full list of NYS golf increases on L.I.  http://tinyurl.com/y72v3a9  The Black easily gets the worst of the increases, which goes along with the soak-the-outsider meme.  (The Blue, Green, and Yellow don't even differentiate on residency status.)

It was interesting to note that the Red and Montauk Downs charge the same.

Philip - wow.  I knew you were the BP guy, but you really are the BP guy.

Tim:  It's absolutely dirty pool to bring Chicago into any discussion of municipal budgets.   

[Matt_Ward]

Doug B:

The folks in Albany should raise the nonresident rate to play the Black to no less than $500 -- make it equal to PB or WS or the others of that type and from a marketing standpoint you can say look at us too !

The sad reality is Bethpage Black has less access now than it ever did -- those looking to book a foursome are quite lucky if they get the real late end of day availability and with that "opportunity" you get the dreaed six hour + rounds.

Frankly Doug -- many outside people feel the same way. The best days of Bethpage, from my perspective and others, is more about yesterday than today. The place truly a people feel back then -- now -- it's more of the country club package type event situation.

The course would be better served if the fairways were widened to no less than 40-50 yards across and the rough considerably lowered.

The fastest time I have played the Black happened after a brief t-storm when the course was cleared and a group of three friends of mins played the course in about four hours -- we were the first group back onto the course. All of us are in good shape and the highest handicap in the group was no more than 10.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak:

I am well aware of what governmental units of all stripes will do to the outside groups that may visit / play golf, etc, etc.

The issue is that the very nature of what Bethpage has become has turned off plenty of people too -- the rates are just the likely last straw in a series of various fumbles.

That's one of the main reasons outside people will only venture to the Red Course now.

[Pete Lavallee]

The course would be better served if the fairways were widened to no less than 40-50 yards across and the rough considerably lowered.

Matt, is it practical or economical to widen fairways and then narrow them again for tournament play? I ask this in alll seriousness; Torrey Pines maintains their 25 yard wide fairways year round. We were told it would be impossible to change them just for one week. Were we lied to, or are you just hoping for wider fairways?

[Kyle Harris]

The course would be better served if the fairways were widened to no less than 40-50 yards across and the rough considerably lowered.

Matt, is it practical or economical to widen fairways and then narrow them again for tournament play? I ask this in alll seriousness; Torrey Pines maintains their 25 yard wide fairways year round. We were told it would be impossible to change them just for one week. Were we lied to, or are you just hoping for wider fairways?

It's not impossible - it just takes longer than one week to make it work. I'd say you could go back and forth in two months given adequate conditions.

[Tim Nugent]

The course would be better served if the fairways were widened to no less than 40-50 yards across and the rough considerably lowered.

Matt, is it practical or economical to widen fairways and then narrow them again for tournament play? I ask this in alll seriousness; Torrey Pines maintains their 25 yard wide fairways year round. We were told it would be impossible to change them just for one week. Were we lied to, or are you just hoping for wider fairways?

It depends on 2 things, what kind of grass - do the fairway and rough have the same type? if Yes than a couple weeks of mowing could get it done but that brings up #2, how the irrigation is laid out.  If the irrigation is geared toward fairways, then converting primary rough to fairway could result in not adequete coverage. 
I don't recall what the grasses are a TP since the Jonesifiation.  But, in any event, one could always decrease the height of cut on the primary rough to near fairway height to a couple of inches and reduce alot of searching time.

Most architects who make wide fairways, do so because they don't really help the scratch player alot but give some relief to the average Joe.  Alas, much of the time we just simply don't have the room.

[Matthew Petersen]

Doug B:

The folks in Albany should raise the nonresident rate to play the Black to no less than $500 -- make it equal to PB or WS or the others of that type and from a marketing standpoint you can say look at us too !

The sad reality is Bethpage Black has less access now than it ever did -- those looking to book a foursome are quite lucky if they get the real late end of day availability and with that "opportunity" you get the dreaed six hour + rounds.

Frankly Doug -- many outside people feel the same way. The best days of Bethpage, from my perspective and others, is more about yesterday than today. The place truly a people feel back then -- now -- it's more of the country club package type event situation.

The course would be better served if the fairways were widened to no less than 40-50 yards across and the rough considerably lowered.

The fastest time I have played the Black happened after a brief t-storm when the course was cleared and a group of three friends of mins played the course in about four hours -- we were the first group back onto the course. All of us are in good shape and the highest handicap in the group was no more than 10.

I'm curious what remedies you would suggest? It seems you would like the course to be set up to be more playable (wider fairways, etc.) and I can see how that could lead to quicker rounds, which could translate into more rounds.

But I don't see how that connects to the course being more available to out of state players. Nor am I sure that it ought to be. If I were a New Yorker and my tax dollars were helping to fund the course I would hope I would be more able to play the course than someone from Phoenix.

[Jud_T]

Most architects who make wide fairways, do so because they don't really help the scratch player alot but give some relief to the average Joe.  Alas, much of the time we just simply don't have the room.

Sums up the problem with most U.S. courses and about 25% of the discussion on this site pretty succinctly.....

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

I see no reason why Bethpage Black was not played all the time -- including big time events with wider fairways and less rough. How would that hurt the course? Are those who insist upon extremly narrow fairways and high thick rough really that clueless on what such situations do and cause for the bulk of the people playing there?

I don't doubt one could not change to narrower fairways in one week but the course is just way too tough for anyone but the really good player. It's really punishing for people to spend endless time looking for balls and then having to play to extremely elevated greens with rough and bunkers flanking the entrace ways time after time. The greatness of the Black would be ENHANCED by widening the fairways and lessening the rigors of the existing rough. You would help speed play along (provided course personnel would actuallt get engaged to do it) and allow the architectural elements to really shine. It's my opinion that courses that overdose on rough only serve to take away what design elements that are present -- it's a rather one-sided formula to grow rough that literally makes various playing options / strategic calculations even less so.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

You raise plenty of good points -- but the overall desire to have a daily US Open layout is a big time reason why play drgas at the Black. The silly idea that people can adjust to such situations is lunacy because they don't have a remote game to do just that. The Black's famous posted sign at the 1st tee says it plainly and simply.

If fairway widths to 40-50 yards cannot be done so easily the need to cut down the existing rough would be something that should be done pronto -- the sheer density, as well as the overall length, makes Bethpage Black look from the sky like the greatest Easter Egg hunt of all time.

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew P:

You're right -- the set-up of the course does little for access to out-of-state players. Formely, Bethpage was a first come first serve facility. That was when everyone had a shot to play -- although the dominant number of players doing so were Long Island area residents. The phone tee time system is completely weighted to local area people -- fair enough since NY State owns the facillity.

My point was that the "public" element that Bethpage represents is really a de facto private club for those who are NYers. The outside players who would like to play it have to work through a system that has limited success for them. Try getting a weekend time frame for a complete foursome of non-Nyers and you'll be lucky if you sniff a tee time earlier than 2:00 PM -- and don't forget the dreaded six hour golf is always a reality until the course set-up and course personnel are engaged seriously.

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

How many years have you been playing the Black. You keep blaming the course set-up for 6 hour rounds but that is simply NOT the cause. I was playing 5&1/2 & 6 hour rounds on it from the day I first set foot on the course in 1967. It has ALWAYS been that way through the years.

Length of play on Bethpage is directly linked to the public golfer not having been taught to play fast. Not having been taught "ready golf." From learniong the game by watching television rather than working with a professional. All these, and a number of other reasons have produced a public golfer that views a 5 hour round as normal and a 6 hour one an inconvenience...

[Matthew Petersen]

Matthew P:

You're right -- the set-up of the course does little for access to out-of-state players. Formely, Bethpage was a first come first serve facility. That was when everyone had a shot to play -- although the dominant number of players doing so were Long Island area residents. The phone tee time system is completely weighted to local area people -- fair enough since NY State owns the facillity.

My point was that the "public" element that Bethpage represents is really a de facto private club for those who are NYers. The outside players who would like to play it have to work through a system that has limited success for them. Try getting a weekend time frame for a complete foursome of non-Nyers and you'll be lucky if you sniff a tee time earlier than 2:00 PM -- and don't forget the dreaded six hour golf is always a reality until the course set-up and course personnel are engaged seriously.

Thanks for the response, Matt.

How would you solve the issue of so little access for out of state players? I have never tried to play Bethpage but I know that it's not easy to get on Torrey Pines as a non-resident. What's the best way to strike a balance given that it is a publically-owned, tax-supported facility?

[Matt_Ward]

Phil --

My first round at Bethpage Black was when I was 15 years old -- that's 37 years ago. Have played no less than 200 rounds on the Black since then. The pace of play has gotten worse than what it was years back. If you see it differently -- then we disagree. The fact is that the extra narrow fairways coupled with the higher and denser roughs have only made matters worse for the average player -- not better in terms of time. Let me also point out -- something you always avoid commenting upon -- that course personnel do not actively engage the patrons / players to pick up the pace. Of course, it's tough to pick up the pace when looking for balls and when people are playing a layout that is set-up way beyond their ability levels.

Play at the Black does move better with the early morning groups because they have players within those times who understand that getting on with the game is important stuff for them and for others. As the day proceeds the length of rounds simply increases more and more. I don't doubt that four hour golf at BB is possible even if you had course personnel on every hole -- but I know I used to play the Black in about five hours time. That is no longer possible.

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