[Brett_Morrissy]

Matt.
Is there a general philosophy in the States for free community, golf or cheap space for the locals - sounds as though Bethpage is a victim of  it's own popularity?
I am coming over from Aust in July for golf trip, hoping to steal away from West for 2-3 days in NY - I had just assumed I could book in advance and get a tee time for a single. Surely, you can turn up at dawn and get a single spot?

Perhaps this is not the case! 

I would be keen to hook up with some other GCA'ers 21,22 and maybe 23 July for a hit, and like John, am travelling a very long way, would have to be Black.

Cheers
Brett M
PS: so many acronyms - what is CCFAD?

[Matt Day]

from memory the booking fee for Torrey Pines was $29 for residents and $40 for the out of towners, so Bethapge booking fee is a bargain in comparison

[John Moore II]

Matt.
Is there a general philosophy in the States for free community, golf or cheap space for the locals - sounds as though Bethpage is a victim of  it's own popularity?
I am coming over from Aust in July for golf trip, hoping to steal away from West for 2-3 days in NY - I had just assumed I could book in advance and get a tee time for a single. Surely, you can turn up at dawn and get a single spot?

Perhaps this is not the case! 

I would be keen to hook up with some other GCA'ers 21,22 and maybe 23 July for a hit, and like John, am travelling a very long way, would have to be Black.

Cheers
Brett M
PS: so many acronyms - what is CCFAD?

CCFAD: Country Club for A Day. Kind of a unique marketing gimmick from here in the US where daily fee clubs try to say they will give you the same experience as a top end country club, but for the single day's fee. Interesting...

Brett-sounds like we might be able to get a little group together for the Black possibly. Those dates work great for me (most likely) as I will not be out to sea at that time.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt, I don't think I am missing the point.  In fact, I asked what it costs elsewhere to play.  To start the discussion, I used local area public courses as that is what I know.  But since you didn't answer and/or respond with prices, I'll post...

Torrey Pines South...$73 for San Diego resident; $218 non-resident

Chambers Bay...$109 resident weekend, $175 non-resident weekend

Indian Wells...$35 resident, $100 non-resident

I believe these are apples to apples as they are all muni's.

Again, I think Bethpage is a pretty good deal price-wise.  But, again, I see your point...prices are going up.  However, my understanding is the course is always packed...so business 101 says raises prices even more.  But it is a muni, so they won't.  That is my point.

I think the question in the case of Bethpage, or the other muni's cited here is simply this;

Why, in a time of very low inflation, shrinking wages, etc., do the prices for the rounds of golf at these courses keep rising?

Is it demand?

Is it a need to cover maintenance costs or union contracts that have built in increases?

I'd love to know the real answer to know what's driving the price points rather than hear the arguments about why this is a good nor not so good thing.

[Matt Day]

Mike
I think a couple of things that could impact
- increasing fuel/fertiliser and chemical
- increasing customer expectations, for example Torrey South greens are hand mown six days per week which means more labour
- local authorities trying to squeeze more money from these cash cows. The course I manage returns a dividend this year of $1.4 million, next year that goes up by 5% so I need to find another $70,000 in revenue just to cover that

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Its got to be demand in this case.  When you have people sleeping in cars and itching to get out there, even at the raised rates its still "cheaper" than what people will pay.

Fortunatly, in this economy the vast majority of publics cannot afford to implement these kind of rate hikes for fear of losing massive customers, but no doubt the "name" places are in position to do so.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

That's great information....I'm trying to get a sense of how much of the freight increase is caused by trying to maintain US Open type conditions for the regular day-to-day customer and how much is determined by other factors.

For comparison, another recently restored/renovated municipal course, Papago in Phoenix, has the following fee structure;   (note:  "Winter Rates" is the high season in AZ...I suspect summer rates are lower)

FEES

Phoenix City Cardholder (Available only to Maricopa County residents.
See purchase details below.):
Winter Rate: Rack Rate $59 Including Cart
Winter Rate: Rack Rate $44 Walking


Non Cardholders and Non Residents
Winter Rate: Rack Rate $99 Including Cart
Please contact the golf shop for current rates and information.


Carts

$18 per rider

Premium Phoenix Card — $50 per Year:

Available to all Maricopa County Residents*

• Advance tee time reservations
• Yearly discounted rates
• Eligible for frequent player promotions/specials
• Email notifications of upcoming special events
• Good at all Phoenix courses
• $30 Renewal fee

[Matt_Ward]

Brett:

Yes, single slots are available and easier to access -- via weekdays especially. Keep in mind the Black can be closed on certain days / times without notice so it pays to call ahead and confirm. I have seen instances where people just assumed the course HAD to be opened.

Contact me off the main board and I can provide you with additional travel info / course recommendations when coming here. Happy to assist.

Mike C:

Part of the issue I have with Bethpage is that they have turned things in the wrong direction because of the desire to keep the Black in always US Open form. The fairways are too narrow -- they must be widened to speed things up -- the rough is too dense and deep in plenty of places. Frankly, it's overkill and when you factor the lack of ability level and the serious walk involved you have mega SLOW play happening routinely.

Bethpage Black needs to be more "scruffy" looking around the edges. It's been made more into a country club element and the core of the course should reflect the natural more appealing look I just mentioned - before all the $$ flowed in the Black did have a certain "look" that made it really special to me and countless others.

The price increase is likely tied to the woes of NY State and all the idiocy running things in Albany.

Mike, muni golf doesn't have to rise itself to triple digit fees -- if that happens you can be sure there are other areas in which prudent cuts or other givebacks can be made. Just my opinion ... from someone who has played the Black roughly 200 times in his lifetime.

[Joe Bausch]

So I just looked up the Red rates myself:

Green Fees (non-NYS resident):Red Course
Weekdays (18 Holes): $86.00
Weekdays (Twilight): $52.00
Weekends (18 Holes): $96.00
Weekends (Twilight): $58.00

Green Fees (Residents):Red Course
Weekdays (18 Holes): $43.00
Weekdays (Twilight): $26.00
Weekends (18 Holes): $48.00
Weekends (Twilight): $29.00

[Mike Cirba]

Mike C:

Part of the issue I have with Bethpage is that they have turned things in the wrong direction because of the desire to keep the Black in always US Open form. The fairways are too narrow -- they must be widened to speed things up -- the rough is too dense and deep in plenty of places. Frankly, it's overkill and when you factor the lack of ability level and the serious walk involved you have mega SLOW play happening routinely.

Bethpage Black needs to be more "scruffy" looking around the edges. It's been made more into a country club element and the core of the course should reflect the natural more appealing look I just mentioned - before all the $$ flowed in the Black did have a certain "look" that made it really special to me and countless others.

Matt,

Yes, that's part of what I'm getting at.

While I'm sure everyone appreciates improved conditions, what's "good enough", and what's over the top?

I agree with you that part of the charm of the original BB was the austere, rugged conditions.   When I see wall-to-wall thick grassing, narrow fairways, triplex cut greens, etc., I wonder why all of that is necessary?

Is this driven by the USGA or internally??

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The issue with Bethpage is not going back to what it was.

That certainly should not happen.

However, the fine tuning that Craig instituted before leaving has been way too intense and certainly beyond the wherewithal of most average players taking on the Black.

Wider fairways cuts -- up to 50 yards across should be the norm on many of the holes -- ditto the knocking down of the penalizing rough. When you have elevated green targets you have more than sufficient challenge for 90% of those who play there. Ditto the intense walk when playing.

NY State has been managed by fools -- they are now simply raising rates to cover their butts -- Bethpage is a showcase and the rugged more natural look would be more golf friendly and cost less $ to implenment in my mind.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Agreed with your general theme...also wondering how much demand continues to support escalating costs.

I'd love to see rounds-per-year data (per course) for the whole complex if anyone has!

This should be available to the public, right?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The extra $$ being requested doesn't likely go back into the facility but goes to Albany to cover their foolish shortfalls and mismanagement. People need to realize that raising costs and applying the $$ back into the course is one thing -- raising the $$ and sending the extra $$ to somewhere else is quite another matter. Plenty of jurisdictions do this and frankly people need to realize that golf should not be that expensive -- whether other places have higher fees is not the point -- they should be lower too.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Re: Papago

The winter rack rate for non residents is discounted on Papago's website. I paid much less. I'm sure you did too.

Unlike BB or even Red, it did not take my group 6 hours to play Papago. If I remember correctly, my round there this winter on a busy February day was about 4:10.

The rates at Aguila, another PHX muni of quality, were under $40 for a non resident in February.

Tom Yost and I played Red Lawrence's Estrella Mountain GC,a Maricopa County muni, for $27, cart included.

[Richard Choi]

Even at the new price, BPB is worth it. I cannot say the same about Torrey Pines...

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt:

I really wonder if this tells us something about golf today.  The course is obviously too difficult for 95% of golfers, rounds take at least 5 hours, you must walk but it is a pain in the butt to get a tee time.  The course is on Long Island so it isn't convenient for those not living in NYC or Long Island so I cannot imagine that out of state players come there very often.  So apparently there are still bunches of dedicated golfers out there.
BTW: Do they have people out on the course monitoring pace of play and if so, do they tell groups that they cannot play the very back tees - are the tee markers out for the back tees other than for the big tournaments? Look at it this way - at least it is only $150 for a six hour round - it's $500+ at Pebble for the same misery.

I should mention that the local munis in my area charge $55 - $75 and do not give a discount for residents. 

[Mike Cirba]

Mike:

The extra $$ being requested doesn't likely go back into the facility but goes to Albany to cover their foolish shortfalls and mismanagement. People need to realize that raising costs and applying the $$ back into the course is one thing -- raising the $$ and sending the extra $$ to somewhere else is quite another matter. Plenty of jurisdictions do this and frankly people need to realize that golf should not be that expensive -- whether other places have higher fees is not the point -- they should be lower too.

Matt,

Whether or not they channel the monies back into the course is not the question.

The question is; what is the demand?

How many rounds per year do they do on the Black course??   On the 4 other courses??

What is the historical trending of rounds during the past 5-10 years?

THIS should tell us something if we want to understand the dynamics of pricing and cost structure at Bethpage.

C'mon man...as a reporter you know they have to provide this stuff under "RIght to Know" laws....aren't you curious?   

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Where the $$ goes is important -- too many times raises are done under the pretense in using it at the facility and all that happens is a funneling of such $$ to the state capital or other such diversion to another program.

Rounds at Bethpage Black are fairly steady -- the issue is why the need to keep the course at such tip top conditioning levels when all that does is add costs and provide for a real crawl when playing there.

For all the $$ they are raking in -- hiring additional help to move players along would be a real improvement.

Jerry:

BB is not effectively monitored for slow play. Essentially if you don't play in the very early morning time frames where people care about pace of play then you are likely going to be in for a very LONG DAY. I don't compare things to Pebble Beach -- different animal and different clientele. Bethpage is about the carpenter's, police personnel, and others of this type who love the place and don't need to take out their AMEX Gold Card  (assuming they have one) to play it.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

How many rounds does BB do annually?

What about the other Bethpage courses?

Thanks

[Kevin Pallier]

Mike:

The extra $$ being requested doesn't likely go back into the facility but goes to Albany to cover their foolish shortfalls and mismanagement. People need to realize that raising costs and applying the $$ back into the course is one thing -- raising the $$ and sending the extra $$ to somewhere else is quite another matter. Plenty of jurisdictions do this and frankly people need to realize that golf should not be that expensive -- whether other places have higher fees is not the point -- they should be lower too.

Matt

All governments get revenue one-way and reallocate to another. What's the big fuss ?

It's a public access facility that caters for a lot of golfers. I wish my local government had such a facility. When they raise the rates to Pebble Beach proportions then I could understand commotion.

I didn't mind forking out non-resident rates to play it and I would do the same again at the revised rates.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

The "big fuss" is often not done in the USA in the event you may not be aware. Too many jurisdictions, from my personal experience, use the flagship layout as a means to take money gathered for that course and spread it around to others.

You may also not be aware that NY State is in deep financial peril. Raising fees at the parks -- especially the golf courses -- is an e-z target for them since the folks using the facility will likely just grin and bear it.

Please enough of the Pebble Beach connection -- PB is a privately held place that provides access to outside play. BB is a taxpayer owned facility -- HUGE difference in terms of presentation, style and clientele.

One other thing -- BB could easily keep rates down without the desire to make the Black some huge manicured carpet with tight driving corridors and inane rough heights. The play is already slow enough.

Raising fees is nothing more than the hand of government dipping into the pockets.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

A good buddy of mine on LI told me that total rounds at all of the facilities at Bethpage is roughly 200,000 -- I'll have to confirm that. Believe the Black is no more than 30,000. Again, I will confirm and get back to you.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike C:

A good buddy of mine on LI told me that total rounds at all of the facilities at Bethpage is roughly 200,000 -- I'll have to confirm that. Believe the Black is no more than 30,000. Again, I will confirm and get back to you.

Matt,

If 30,000 is the number, that may be down somewhat over the past decade.   

I came across two sources yesterday.   One was a GCSAA cheat sheet for the 2009 Open at BB, which claimed a round number of 40,000 rounds annually on that course.

The other, from earlier in the decade, stated that the facitlity as a whole did 275-300K rounds per year, with the Black course doing 40K.

Now, I'm no mathematician, but at least in terms of pulling it's share, it seems to me that the other courses are getting a disproportiinately higher number of rounds opposed to the Black, in effect, probably funding somewhat the higher level of conditioning on that course.

In fact, if those numbers are correct, just using say 280, with the Black doing 40K, that would mean the other 4 courses averaged 60K apiece at that time.

Does that sound right?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Keep in mind the Black is often closed during the season for grooming and the like -- plus outside events like the NY State Open and this year with the Met Open.

My numbers may be too low for both BB and overall for the park but my main point still stands. NY State simply upped the $$ amt because of their own foolishness in running the state.

BB also doesn't need to be daily prepper as the US Open is being played there -- a bit more elasticity and natural look would add greatly to the time spent there.

[Mike Sweeney]

NY State simply upped the $$ amt because of their own foolishness in running the state.

Matt,

Let's tee it up at a New Jersey state owned golf course soon.  Or a Pennsylvania or a Connecticut or a Rhode Island or a Massachusetts......

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