News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 10:01:35 PM »
"Are you joking?"


Tom MacWood"

Is that response (which is a question response) to what I asked you EXPLANATORY???
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 10:04:00 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2010, 06:51:49 AM »
Tom MacWood,

You can deflect and exaggerate all you like but it doesn't answer my question.   All of these men, with the exception of Campbell who stayed near Boston after migrating from Scotland, were itinerant, meaning simply they travelled regularly for work.

Are you still contending that the amateur Emmett required the help of the professional Findlay before he could lay out a course of the quality shown in the drawing?

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2010, 08:31:43 AM »
This is a segment of the account of George L. Hubbell, the co-architect of the original nine hole course of GCGC in 1897. At that time the land and course was owned by The Garden City Company of which George L. Hubbell was the general manager.

     The scheme was attempted, however, under the advice and with the help of Mr Devereux Emmet, one of the Directors, who had experience of the game abroad and was confident of its popularity if properly introduced in this country. The work of laying out the first nine holes was undertaken by Mr. Emmet and the writer during February, 1897.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 08:38:07 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2010, 09:41:27 AM »
I have a real good finding here.  This from the April 17, 1897 edition of the Daily Eagle.


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2010, 11:00:19 AM »
Joe:

That drawing of the original nine holes is pretty similar to original course but there are a few differences. That could probably be explained by the fact that the course did not open until the end of May 1897 and that article and drawing may've been done in March or April.

It appears there were up to at least three stick routing iterations done around that time on that property. The club has another one that is drawn right on top of a proposed residential lot map!

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »
Nice stuff, Joe and Tom.

It appears our amateurs Messrs. Emmett and Hubbell had a bit of ability after all.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2010, 02:00:11 PM »
Did someone doubt Emmet had GCA ability?  If so, I don't see why as he certainly did have plenty of experience abroad and he was also an "expert" golfer as just about all the rest of those well-known "amateur/sportsman" architects were as well.

This George Loring Hubbell is a very interesting guy. I don't think he was a particularly good golfer but he sure was important for many many years with Garden City, the town, the course and club and the original Garden City Company. Even more interesting was Alexander Turney Stewart, the man who bought 8,000 acres around there in 1870. He was apparently one of the richer men in America and pretty much the utopianist in his vision for Garden City which he created!

By the way, in Hubbell's account of the creation of the GCGC course he also mentioned the second nine holes was designed by himself, Emmet and a friend of Emmet's from Ireland by the name of Robert Digby.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 02:05:05 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2010, 02:42:35 PM »
More on the early Garden City Golf Club, this from the July 8, 1899 edition of the Daily Eagle.






@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2010, 03:00:49 PM »
Still more, this describing the opening of the course on May 30, 1897.


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2010, 03:31:40 PM »

Did someone doubt Emmet had GCA ability?  If so, I don't see why as he certainly did have plenty of experience abroad and he was also an "expert" golfer as just about all the rest of those well-known "amateur/sportsman" architects were as well.


I don't know, Tom.   Wasn't that the thrust of a post someone made earlier when it seemed perhaps Alex Findlay designed the first nine holes and they suggested that this could be another case of an "amateur myth" being dispelled?   What other amateur could have been implied in that supposed mythological story but Emmett?

Of course, many, many earlier courses were designed by "expert" amateurs, including the original Aronimink (aka Belmont) as the following story from 1898 points out.






To give you some idea of Wilson's comparative competitive prowess at that time, he was listed as scratch, Townsend and Huff were 8's, and Cattell, Coates, and Scott were 14's. 



« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 03:41:02 PM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2010, 05:35:01 PM »
"This is what my thesaurus has for itinerant: wandering, wayfaring, peripatetic, roving, migrant, traveling, nomadic, footloose, vagabond, transient, person on the move, homeless traveler, roamer, rover, nomad.

When you think of men like Thompson, Findlay, Campbell, Barker and Dunn do you see gypsies?"


Tom MacWood:

There's actually another word definition resource tool that's more specific than a thesaurus; it's call a dictionary. Have you ever heard of it?

Here's what my Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary has for itinerant-----1. Traveling from place to place. esp. on a circuit, as a minister, judge, sales representative; itinerating; journeying. 2. characterized by such traveling. 3. working in one place for a comparatively short time and then moving on to work in another place....


I have to believe you are somewhat familiar with that concept and practice with some of the immigrant golf professionals/teachers/clubmakers/greenskeepers/architects in the early years of golf and architecture in America; after-all aren't you the one who maintains HH Barker designed Merion East one day in December 1910 while taking a train from New York to Georgia?  ;)

If that were the case I'd have to say he was not just itinerant but damn rapid about his architectural itinerancy! So rapid, in fact, apparently Merion (MCC) never even realized he was there. But if the historians of Merion happen to find some administative document in the archives that explains the Men or Merion found a design for the East course at the Ardmore Station and decided to use it I will be the first to tell you and the world about it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 05:50:58 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2010, 08:02:32 AM »
Nice stuff, Joe and Tom.

It appears our amateurs Messrs. Emmett and Hubbell had a bit of ability after all.

Mike
There you go again. Do you doubt Hubbell's own report that Findlay advised? I believe the second nine was mostly the work of Emmet.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2010, 08:19:51 AM »
TEP
Mike has a tendency to use loaded terms when describing architects he sees as threats. There was a time when he would not mention the name Barker without also bringing up the much maligned Dunn name in the same sentence, and now we have his use of a term that denotes a homeless vagabond. I guess he believes these little negative subliminals will help to elevate his legend by denigrating those characters that are unwelcome. I think most people see through it.

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2010, 08:50:25 AM »
"Do you doubt Hubbell's own report that Findlay advised? I believe the second nine was mostly the work of Emmet."


It does not appear to me that George L. Hubbell mentioned Alex Findlay in his report although it appears a GCGC history book mentioned that Findlay was on a early committee to look into the feasibility of a golf course on that site; perhaps the club has the 1896 Findlay drawing and/or the newspaper from The Eagle that Joe Bausch found which is not much like the nine hole course Hubbell and Emmet laid out in the winter and spring of 1897.

In Hubbell's actual account he mentioned he and Emmet laid out the original nine holes and he mentioned that he and Emmet laid out the second nine holes in 1898 with a man from Ireland by the name of Robert Digby who was staying with Emmet at the time. I don't think there is much question that Alex Findlay was involved early on (1896) but from the detailed account Hubbell offered in 1915 he did not mention Findlay laying out (or advising on) the original nine hole course with he and Emmet or the second nine a year later with he and Emmet and Digby.

George Hubbell seems to be a wonderful source of information from that time as he was the general manager of the Garden City Co. that owned and planned that land and a great deal more. Other than Alexander Turney Stewart who bought the original 8,000 acres and had the vision for the creation of Garden City in 1870, it would seem there may not have been another man as important to and involved with Garden City's history than George Loring Hubbell.

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2010, 09:01:14 AM »
"TEP
Mike has a tendency to use loaded terms when describing architects he sees as threats. There was a time when he would not mention the name Barker without also bringing up the much maligned Dunn name in the same sentence, and now we have his use of a term that denotes a homeless vagabond. I guess he believes these little negative subliminals will help to elevate his legend by denigrating those characters that are unwelcome. I think most people see through it."


I don't think Mike Cirba said or implied anything of the kind. It is your sensitivity about something you have not heretofore admitted to or explained even though I keep encouraging you to do so that apparently leads you to characterize the word "itinerant" as only a vagabond (check out the definition I posted yesterday from Webster's Unabriged Universal Dictionary----eg it mentions circuit judges and ministers and sales representatives as "itinerant" also. Would you characterize them as "vagabonds" as well?). ;)

I think not just most people but pretty much everyone sees through what you're doing on here with your constant remarks such as the one above that have been going on for about seven years on here and with numerous clubs and architects----eg just trying to challenge those club histories and their architects you refer to as "legends" (and particularly the "amateur/sportsman" variety that you label as "romanticism"  ::) ) by minimizing their abilities and careers in some attempt to unfactually and inaccurately elevate the contributions of some part-time participants and support personel.

Lastly, what you just said about Cirba on Alex Findlay is really ironic, as Cirba has said a number of times on here that throughtout his long-term interest in golf course architecture Alex Findlay just may be one of his real favorites. Therefore the difference between Cirba and you is he looks at and analyzes GCA history logically and accurately while I don't believe anyone could say that about you. You are an excellent raw researcher though; it's just always been your analytical skills on what you find you need to seriously work on improving.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 09:26:40 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2010, 09:44:07 AM »
That sure is ironic, Tom.   I've played over 20 courses that Findlay was involved with and think his very low-key, lay-of-the-land style is underrated and unappreciated.

And...if anyone could be called itinerant, it was Mr. Alex Findlay, even though he was based in Philadelphia for a number of decades.  ;)

It seems that Tom MacWood just wants to divert the discussion here to deflect from the fact that he suggested the Dev Emmett needed Alex Findlay's help to build the first nine holes at GCGC when the historical record directly disputes that contention.

This is what I wrote about Findlay in 2003 on a thread from Mark Chalfant asking for info about his design style;


Mark;

Alex Findlay was perhaps as much of a "Johnny Appleseed", cultivating the growth of the game in this country in the early years, as anyone else. 

He built MANY courses, mostly on the east coast, where he was employed by one of the major sporting goods companies (which had teamed with a railroad company) to promote the game and build new courses.  He worked from Maine to Florida, and as far west as Nebraska where he built a rudimentary nine-holer in the 1880s.

He was great friends with the Vardons and Rays and other celebrities of the game, and was quite an accomplished player in his own right.  So enthusiastic was Findlay in promoting the game, he even travelled to the Vatican, hoping to convince the Pope to build a course there.

I've played many Findlay courses, and there are quite a few of them in the Philadelphia area, where he eventually settled in the late teens through the remainder of his life.  He kept busy designing courses even after the Depression in that area, and some of his most noted efforts have been mentioned.  If you would like to know more about which courses he built, I'd be happy to list some of them.

Generally, he was a functional architect, but one who was rather creative in his routings and use of natural landforms.  Some quick impressions of his design style are as follows;

* He was not one for using a lot of fairway bunkers, preferring instead to use the contours of the land to dictate positioning.

* Most of his greensites were bunkered on both sides, at 4 and 8 o'clock, with longish bunkers squeezing the approach.

* His greens tended to be narrow but deep, requiring both accuracy and distance control.  The worst sin on Findlay courses is to miss your approaches to the sides due to this narrowness.

* He did very little in the way of creating mounds or other obviously artificial features, although his greens generally rise up a little from the surrounding terrain, and he created mounds on the back side of his bunkers.

* He seemed to love utilizing existing natural water hazards, and the use of the creek at Reading CC for instance, is wonderfully routed in a variety of ways.  He also wasn't opposed to using water, particularly creeks, as forced carry shots on approaches and par threes.

* Like many who followed him, such as Ross and Flynn, Findlay loved to build holes where both the tee and green were elevated, driving downhill and then approaching uphill.

* Findlay's greens were generally very naturally integrated into their surrounds, although some do "pop-up" sort of Raynor-like, and were as likely to use natural slope as anything with man-made created internal contours, although a number of his greens have distinct "levels"

* Findlay was not averse to creating steeply uphill holes, particularly on par threes, many of which one can only see the top half of the flagstick.

* Conversely, Findlay created some dramatic drop shot par threes, and some of them still play very long and difficult to this day despite the downhill slope.

* One of his favorite tactics was to build short par four holes where the player is asked to drive directly into a steep sideslope with the hole turning quickly in the direction of the slope.  On those holes, the player is tempted to bite off more than they can chew, and missing on the short side is certain death.  However, on those same holes, the player who plays too timidly is left with a steeply side-sloped shot with everything running away from them.

* Findlay also seemed to used forested areas in interesting ways, where a player is tempted to keep it close to trouble to gain an advantageous line for the subsequent shot.  He also seemed to like to tuck his greensites into little glades and around corners of existing mature trees.  However, many of his courses today suffer from overplanting of trees along fairway corridors, which clearly differs from the original design intent.

* Findlay seemed to LOVE blind shots, and I don't know a course of his I've played that doesn't feature at least one of them on the approach, and usually quite a few where the landing area might not be from the tee.  My favorite hole of his is the 11th at Reading, which bears some similarlity in the feel of the approch to the Alps Hole at NGLA, except with OB close behind. 

I hope this synopsis give you a feel for his style and influence.  Please feel free to ask me to clarify or detail any of the above. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2010, 10:02:46 AM »
Mike
Nice try - you'd throw your own grandmother under the bus if there was the slightest hint she was involved in the design of Merion....and if that didn't do the trick TE would finish her off in his smart car.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 10:06:16 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2010, 10:08:25 AM »
Mike
Nice try - you'd throw your own grandmother under the bus if there was the slightest hint she was involved in the design of Merion....and if that didn't do the trick TE finish her off in his smart car.

Actually, Tom, Alex Findlay was involved with the design of Merion.

Joe Bausch's article shows that clearly.   Findlay was out there with Wilson prior to his overseas visit, and again afterwards, and Findlay definitely advised him on matters related to the course.

That's the way these guys worked, Tom.   But at the end of the day, there was still only one person in charge who took that input and advice from various sources and made the final decisions.

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2010, 11:22:41 AM »
"Mike
Nice try - you'd throw your own grandmother under the bus if there was the slightest hint she was involved in the design of Merion....and if that didn't do the trick TE would finish her off in his smart car."


Tom MacWood:

You've been making those kinds of remarks on here for years now. Are they really necessary and if you think they are why do you think they are?

Furthermore, are you going to even acknowledge Mike Cirba's last post much less consider it and what he's saying in it (about Findlay) or are you going to just completely ignore it too and keep making thoroughly non-productive remarks on here like the one quoted above?

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2010, 11:28:31 AM »
"It seems that Tom MacWood just wants to divert the discussion here to deflect from the fact that he suggested the Dev Emmett needed Alex Findlay's help to build the first nine holes at GCGC when the historical record directly disputes that contention."


It would seem to me that the very best record of the actual facts of the beginnings of golf and golf architecture at GCGC that the club could possibly have or use is that of George Loring Hubbell. In that vein, his own actual words from his 1915 recollections of the early history of the course are far and away the most valuable. After-all George L. Hubbell was directly involved at all times and in all ways. A better contemporaneous source or resource of information could not be found, in my opinion.

And it seems in its most recent history book GCGC has prevalently used George L. Hubbell's important 1915 recollections of the beginnings of golf and golf architecture at Garden City.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:30:44 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2010, 09:31:41 AM »
With my latest GCGC thread, I thought this thread where the early origins of the course should be 'bumped' for those playing along at home and newbies.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2010, 09:52:42 AM »

Is this another example of the romanticization of the amateur one hit wonder golf architect?

In most of these cases you'll find an experience man lurking in the shadows.

I tend to agree with Tom MacWood on this issue.

One of the major issues with golf course design was/is drainage and engineering.

Seth Raynor and Robert Francis were critical contributors when it came to golf course design and construction.

It's hard to imagine an amateur with no backround in engineering and/or construction crafting an almost perfect golf courses.

I think many of these early efforts had "specialists" helping the project.



Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2010, 10:00:45 AM »
Patrick,

You're so far off-base here that you could get picked off first with an under-handed throw from deep left field.  ;)  ;D

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2010, 10:02:59 AM »
"I think many of these early efforts had "specialists" helping the project."



There's no question about that and NGLA and Merion East just may've been some of the first really good examples of that. Macdonald partnered closely with a professional engineer surveyor at NGLA (Raynor) and Wilson and Committee partnered with club member and professional engineer and surveyor with Richard Francis!

Were these two projects the first in American architecture to do it that way or do it that comprehensively with a professional surveyor engineer? As far as I can tell, at this point, they may've been! They also may've been the first projects in American architecture to utilize a PRE-construction topographical survey contour map!!

As for construction itself MCC hired on Wilson's recommendation a very experienced construction foreman, Frederick Pickering. Even if Wilson did not name him in his correspondences it appears he hired him around July 1911.

Wilson and his committee were not the "constructors" (buildders) of that golf course to someone else's routing and design plan as Moriarty tried to claim in his essay. "Missing Faces of Merion."

Wilson and MCC hired a good professional construction foreman to build the golf course to their routing and design plan that they had some help and advice in developing with Macdonald and Whigam which the contemporaneous administrative records of MCC have always reflected and recorded.

Just because the likes of MacWood and Moriarty never knew this before about Merion East's architectural history is of virtually no consequence to the actual and factual history of the routing and design creation of Merion East as it's been recorded for many, many years, and as it's being discussed on here now!

« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:13:07 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2010, 10:04:29 AM »
Patrick,

You're so far off-base here that you could get picked off first with an under-handed throw from deep left field.  ;)  ;D


Yee of little faith.
I'm a little more skilled than that.

I'd be far past second and safely on my way to third ;D