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Ben Stephens

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2010, 10:37:17 AM »
Yes, Ben Stephens, when it comes to some of the finer points on historical research you danged well better take your hands outta your pockets and stay on your toes or I will GAZUMP you and your Whoopsies in a New York second!!

LOL! Yes I admit trying to do 2 things at a time and not getting my facts right! Will be careful in future as there are historical snipers around on this forum!  ;D

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 10:37:55 AM »
Thanks Scott... Thread moves too quick for me...

Ben Stephens

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 10:39:12 AM »
I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...



Wow great photo Jim - any chance that you have a photo of the 17th from the same angle so that I can create a photomontage and maybe of the proposed new 18th
Cheers
Ben

Ben Stephens

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 10:40:26 AM »
Thanks Scott... Thread moves too quick for me...

Me too - this thread is on hyperdrive at the moment  ;D

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 10:43:52 AM »
Since the hole is nearly driveable, is it necessary or desirable to have a split fairway?  If there is a concern about being able to cut down cypress trees, would it make more sense to eliminate that option and not have such a wide fairway?

TEPaul

Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2010, 10:51:53 AM »
"Will be careful in future as there are historical snipers around on this forum!   ;D"


Yes there are but I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. There are some historical snipers on here like Tom MacWood but he's just armed with some irrelevant old newspaper and magazine articles so his historical sniping is sort of like sniping with a B-B gun. But with me and my stash of really important and relevant historical material it's more like sniping with an arsenal of Intercontinental Nucleur Ballistic  Missiles!! I can gazump historical duffuses and their whoopsies to Kingdom Come from clear over on the other side of the world in a matter of seconds by the mere push of a button!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2010, 10:55:16 AM »
I think the new hole will be far to short.

Jim Colton

Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2010, 11:02:25 AM »
I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...



Wow great photo Jim - any chance that you have a photo of the 17th from the same angle so that I can create a photomontage and maybe of the proposed new 18th
Cheers
Ben

Don't have any good photos of the 17th.  Here is what I have.





Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2010, 11:04:56 AM »
I think the new hole will be far to short.

'Too short' do you mean as a par 5? I have looked at Google Earth with its ruler the distance from the existing back tee to the new green is around 460-470 yards. That is long to mere mortals and also the fairway pinches at the 310 mark so long hitter could use a 3 wood instead

Cheers
Ben  

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2010, 11:08:04 AM »
I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...



Wow great photo Jim - any chance that you have a photo of the 17th from the same angle so that I can create a photomontage and maybe of the proposed new 18th
Cheers
Ben

Apologies - Jim's photos are much better quality but nonetheless I do have this photo you could incorporate into a panorama.


Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2010, 11:12:01 AM »
sorry Ben I did not have the new green oriented correctly. We looked at that idea from the balcony of the clubhouse a few years ago. I think it could be great but alot of tree removal would have to occur.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2010, 11:26:28 AM »
I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...



Jim,

Thats a nice photo of some trees, but when are you going to post a picture of the view from the 18th tee?  ;D ::)

Ben,

Good work and great thread! I'm glad to see this thread being taken in good spirits, as I was dissappointed that when you tried this last year with some possible Open links courses that it got a bit bogged down.

I'd leave the 16th hole alone if I was you, and I'd be worried about balls from 18 heading the way of the 16th tees. Could you put the green a bit shorter making it a medium par 4, or perhaps even going back to one of the original ideas and building a tee for the 18th out on the rocks, accessed via a bridge, to make it a long 4???

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Tim Nugent

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2010, 11:47:34 AM »
Anyone know who owns the parking lot to the right of #18 tee?
Coasting is a downhill process

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2010, 01:06:03 PM »
I think that is owned by the same people who charge you to drive along 17 mile drive.  Its a parking lot for the lookout.

Originally Dr. M looked at having the 18th tee on the rock outcrop just out of shot at the bottom right of the first picture.  A suspension bridge would give access but it was thought to be out of keeping with the rest of the course.  Thats what I believe anyway.  I have a pic somewhere...

Great work Ben- cool concept.  I am actaully a fan of 18 the way it is though!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2010, 01:11:00 PM »
The pic's in the back of Shacklefords book, I believe. I always thought the bridge was a cool idea.
Don't know how the California Coatal Commission would feel about any of the ideas though ???
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2010, 01:14:36 PM »
By the way, who knows when CPC took out all the original MacKenzie fairway bunkering on #18 and who knows what they did that for? #17 and particularly #18 had some of the most significant examples of a double hazard of bunkers and trees in the same place I've ever heard of from a really prominent architect.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 01:17:51 PM by TEPaul »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2010, 02:03:48 PM »
Dear GCA,

Please see original post - a birdeye aerial view of the current layout and proposed layout are added. I would love to play this 3 hole loop 6 times. If there was a playoff this would be a stunning 3 hole loop!

The fairway drops down slightly off the tee and then 2nd shot is to a raised green with enough fairway area on the right of the green to play safe.

Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 06:51:18 PM by Ben Stephens »

Sean Leary

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2010, 02:09:45 PM »
Only downside I see is that 16 tees is very close to your 18 green.

Obviously MacKenzie didn't put it there for a reason, though...

I still think that with some selected tree removal, the existing hole could be signficantly better.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2010, 02:23:02 PM »
I made a similar suggestion a couple of years ago but lack the intellectual capacity to pull it forward with the cracker-jack search function. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2010, 02:23:58 PM »
If you read Sandy Tatums interview from last year, he believes Mac seriously considered this routing for the 18th.


Ben Stephens

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Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2010, 02:51:57 PM »
From Sandy Tatum interview re: Cypress Point

You are a long time member at Cypress Point. Please describe a favorite hole.

Really it’s every hole but one can’t think of Cypress Point without thinking of the 16th hole. It’s the signature hole. There is something mystical about the hole and how Marion Hollins saved it when Mackenzie was concerned that it was too difficult with the hickory shafted club and the 1926 golf ball that she used, teed up in the dirt, she hit it onto the green area. I think if she had not hit that shot, he (Mackenzie) might have created some funky 4 par.

One of the world's great half par holes - the sixteenth at Cypress Point Club.
In picking another, I would also say the 9th, which has the same frame of reference that the 10th at Riveria has. I think any great golf course should have a drivable 4 par that makes risk rewards factors play so interesting. If you choose to lay it up, the 2nd shot is so difficult especially if the pin is up on the upper level.

I was playing there with Tom Watson a number of years ago and after we had played the hole he turned to me and said it was the best short par 4 he had ever played. It is absolutely perfect.

What are your thoughts on the eighteenth hole at Cypress Point?

I think it’s the most ridiculously maligned golf hole that I have ever played. I think it’s a wonderful golf hole. Jimmy Demaret is the one that said that Cypress was the best 17 hole golf course that he had played. If you really study that hole you realize that you have to be very careful in hitting that tee shot. The brilliance of that hole is the construction of the area where the tee shots lands. Depending on whether you take the risk of hitting the drive on the right hand side or you have to contend with that tree that guards the left approach and decide whether to go over it, around it or under it.

Discuss how the ball and technology has effected Cypress Point over the past thirty years.

It’s just not viable as a championship course anymore. As you know, there is plenty of room to add distance at Cypress Point. Holes 4,6,8 could be lengthened and 9 if the tee is moved down. Furthermore you could go back as far as you wanted on 12 and 13.

There was a serious movement to do that and I wrote a letter to the board saying to do that would eliminate a Mackenzie design. I added that if Cypress wanted to have an influence on the game then keep it is as it is and have it used as a clinical example of why the ball should be rolled back. As a practical manner, lengthening it was only going to accommodate a very small percentage of people. I have a friend who is a member and he disagrees with me. His argument is he saw Tiger Woods play the 2nd hole with a driver and 4 iron. Others have seen him try and drive the 17th hole. My argument is that when a player can do that, he takes every single design element that the architect puts in the hole, out of play.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 02:54:28 PM by Ben Stephens »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2010, 03:01:53 PM »
Thanks Joel for letting me know about Sandy Tatum's comments re: Cypress Point

Cheers
Ben

John Moore II

Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »
I like the layout of that new hole, staying with the ocean/bay views the whole way. And that is really top level with with photoshop in the pictures.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2010, 06:05:20 PM »
I've talked with Sandy Tatum about that hole and CPC countless times so maybe I didn't place it in the interview.  Regardless, he has walked into that area and felt that Mackenzie had to consider it for the finishing hole.

I don't think he knows or if it's ever been documented why he built the hole the way it is.

I did forward the photo to a CPC member and he laughed saying it would take an act of god to change the hole.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new 18th Hole at Cypress Point
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2010, 06:38:47 PM »
I like the layout of that new hole, staying with the ocean/bay views the whole way. And that is really top level with with photoshop in the pictures.

John,

Thanks for your comments

Cheers
Ben

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