Berkshire Redesign.

[henrye]

This bunker looks like it has been "modernised" with a tongue created in the middle which does not quite work.

I absolutely agree.  I can't stand bunker "tongues".  Who created such a thing?  They are everywhere in modern design.

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,

I like the look fo that course but it has to be said it looks nothing like any of the UK heathland courses I have ever played.  It loos rather more like a good US modern parkland course, with purple carpet.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

I like the look fo that course but it has to be said it looks nothing like any of the UK heathland courses I have ever played.  It loos rather more like a good US modern parkland course, with purple carpet.

Do any of the UK heathlands look like they did 70 years ago?... Not many, judging by old photos...

I guess it's never going to look exactly the same when you're trying to create a cool season member's feel in the middle of a warm season resort...

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,

Of course that's right.  However, I'll bet that no UK hearthland course looked like that 70 years ago and it doesn't look like it would "feel" like a UK heathland course.  Frankly, I'm not sure you could manage that in a warm climate but I wonder if you could get closer.  The fountain doesn't help, either!

[Sean_A]

Scott,

I don't think the comments from Peter Thomson or Tim Lobb are anything more than Sales / good PR.... there is nowhere in those words where an outrageous claim is made such as the one you cite from Gary Player...

As it happens, I do like the look of the course - very much... There appears to be width, the land flows beautifully and hasn't been overshaped, the bunkers are artistic and there seems to be a good number of playing options (I've seen plenty more photos than these mind)...

I agree about the photoshopping though... the purple in that first photo really jumps out at you and the edges look very doctored....

Sean,

In my opinion, drainage is all part of the renovation but to improve the drainage, reshaping is often necessary... In addition, it makes perfect sense to try and bring back a singular style (such as the shape on Blue 13)... Too many of the heathland courses have about 3 or 4 different styles of bunkers from incremental small changes by greenstaff over the years...

Ally

You are right, most heathland courses have a mish mash of bunker styles -  precisely because folks keep fiddling about like Uncle Ernie.  Nothing is ever definitive in these matters. 

Of course if the bunkers have a drainage problem then have at it.  I just don't see what changing the shapes to a more Fowler look and adding heather tops has to do with drainage.  I sniff an aesthetic project in which drainage will be improved.  If it were me selling this project, I would say its a drainage project which will also incorporate some aesthetic issues.  I just hate to see clubs spending money on stuff that is beside the point.  Its no wonder I belong to a club with one of the most spartan courses among the best of GB&I.

Looking closer at those pix of the "heathland" course in Turkey - are they real?  The closer I look, the more fake they look. 

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

Looking closer at those pix of the "heathland" course in Turkey - are they real?  The closer I look, the more fake they look.  

After a closer look I would say that the first 3 are definitely photoshopped pre or during construction jobs.  

Interestingly they are the only photos I could find on the web that showed the abundant heath.  I wonder if it ever got planted or grew there?

Most photos focus on the 5 greens that abutt water hazards, such as the one in the last photo in my previous post or the ones  below.

It will be interesting to see if Thomson, Lobb and Co. incorporate some of these features at The Berkshire. 

[Sean_A]

Looking closer at those pix of the "heathland" course in Turkey - are they real?  The closer I look, the more fake they look. 

After a closer look I would say that the first 3 are definitely photoshopped pre or during construction jobs. 

Interestingly they are the only photos I could find on the web that showed the abundant heath.  I wonder if it ever got planted or grew there?

Most photos focus on the 5 greens that abut water hazards, such as the one in the last photo or the one  below.

Are folks still convinced this is a heathland course or even heathland inspired?  I can't see it, but I haven't taken off my shades to take a proper look.

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

Sean, I definitely haven't got the course confused.


This is from the website

The course is inspired by the traditional old English style heathland courses in the surrey area outside of London such as Wentworth, Sunningdale, Walton Heath and The Berkshire. Creating Carya Golf Course has involved planting of close to 1 million heather plants to strengthen the heathland environment already existing.

This is from Peter Thomson on the website

“This is an exceptional piece of land on which to build a golf course. It is reminiscent of the famous Surrey heathland courses near London that I rate among the world's best and which I was fortunate to enjoy much success on in my playing days. I am very excited about the prospect of TPL creating a classic, traditional style course in Turkey.”

this is from Tim Lobb in an article

“What sets Carya Golf Club apart is its traditional and classic style...It’s an outstanding site that has enabled us to create a free flowing, expansive and highly natural course.

And this is from the greenskeeper at The Berkshire in the same article. 

“Heather is renowned in the UK as a feature of some of our finest golf courses, including Sunningdale, Walton Heath and The Berkshire. I think it is tremendous that Thomson Perrett & Lobb is emulating the character of these classic courses in Turkey, where heather already grows naturally, and has gone the extra mile to achieve that goal.”

Here is the course website for more info, like i said though, most of the photos seem to be during construction so it is still lacking a bit of the heather feel, i would suppose.  http://www.caryagolf.com/en/index.php?p=gallery

[Sean_A]

Sean, I definitely haven't got the course confused.


This is from the website

The course is inspired by the traditional old English style heathland courses in the surrey area outside of London such as Wentworth, Sunningdale, Walton Heath and The Berkshire. Creating Carya Golf Course has involved planting of close to 1 million heather plants to strengthen the heathland environment already existing.

This is from Peter Thomson on the website

“This is an exceptional piece of land on which to build a golf course. It is reminiscent of the famous Surrey heathland courses near London that I rate among the world's best and which I was fortunate to enjoy much success on in my playing days. I am very excited about the prospect of TPL creating a classic, traditional style course in Turkey.”

this is from Tim Lobb in an article

“What sets Carya Golf Club apart is its traditional and classic style...It’s an outstanding site that has enabled us to create a free flowing, expansive and highly natural course.

And this is from the greenskeeper at The Berkshire in the same article. 

“Heather is renowned in the UK as a feature of some of our finest golf courses, including Sunningdale, Walton Heath and The Berkshire. I think it is tremendous that Thomson Perrett & Lobb is emulating the character of these classic courses in Turkey, where heather already grows naturally, and has gone the extra mile to achieve that goal.”

Here is the course website for more info, like i said though, most of the photos seem to be during construction so it is still lacking a bit of the heather feel, i would suppose.  http://www.caryagolf.com/en/index.php?p=gallery

David

I am sure you are correct.  I wasn't questioning you, but I was questioning the authenticity of this Turkish course as heathland or heathland inspired. 

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

FWIW, here's what an aquaintance of mine has said about Carya:

- par 3 holes repetetive (all uphill, all forced carries over bunkers)
- more sand on tees and greens than in bunkers
- bunker shots bottom out against the bunker lining, which was even sticking out in places
- beautiful white color of bunker sand

Yeah, not all of that may be down to the design team. But since we're talking bunkering here ... in any event, the white bunker sand must be a design decision and it doesn't match the heathland designation.

And perhaps it can be concluded that the drawing-only approach has led to problems at Carya.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

Jesus wept.

It's seeming increasingly fitting that this course is just down the coast in Turkey from a course that uses a picture of Whistling Straits in its marketing.

Ally et al: What of substance about this course is reminiscent of Sunningdale, The Berkshire or Walton Heath?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Deleted - see below

[Sean_A]

Is this thread not about a renovation project at The Berkshire?

Carya was designed by two very good golf course architects, one of which is an active member of this site... It (and he) could probably do without people castigating it, based on a few hand picked photographs and no knowledge either of the course or what went in to designing and building it...

So they used some PR to give it a sales angle... What's new?

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether TPL will do a good job at The Berkshire...

Who is castigating the Turkish course or the archies?  A course can be excellent without being of the heathland type and archies can be excellent without ever designing a course on heathland.  

Ciao  

[Scott Warren]

Ally,

The company itself is presenting this course as representative of its passion for and tribute to the London Heathland - including The Berkshire as a specific mention. I think for that reason, what they built is relevant to the planned renovation of The Berkshire.

No one has said it's necessarily a bad golf course (it looks like an enjoyable "holiday golf" stroll), or that the guys responsible are not able golf course architects - I would not be so presumptuous because I am a relative neophyte and haven't played the course - but you can't just hide behind "it's a PR sales pitch" when the comments you're making to harness the good names of other courses for your gain are questioned.

Especially when Peter Thomson has a history of drawing questionable comparisons to great courses to promote his own work. Are we here for spirited discussion of golf courses, or to offer platitudes to any course built?

Perhaps I am wrong and this course is a fitting tribute to the heathland golf found at Sunningdale, The Berkshire and Walton Heath. I am happy to be corrected if that is the case.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, Scott,

I do not believe it is relevant. I haven't the will to argue why - But we were heading in to some giant leaps of faith between your connections and Ulrich's "a friend of a friend told me" post....

I wish TPL good luck with the renovation at The Berkshire - I look forward to the results...

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,

Frankly I rather resent the accusation that we have been castigating Carya.  Do you think it looks like a heathland course or looks like it might feel like one.  I think I said it looks like a good course.  From what I can see in the pictures I think it does. Can't I say that but comment that it doesn't look like a heathland course (when it has been held out as such and as justifying the credentials of these architects to redo teh Berkshire bunkers?  I'm not commenting on their suitability for that job, I'll wait until I see the results but surely this discussion is what this site is all about?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark,

I wasn't referring to you... And yes - you're right. That is what this site is about.

It just sometimes irks that there is so little understanding given to those architects that fall outside the Doak / C&C / General GCA approved hierarchy...

I have decided to delete my previous post... It has only fuelled an argument that shouldn't really exist...

[Andrew Summerell]

It just sometimes irks that there is so little understanding given to those architects that fall outside the Doak / C&C / General GCA approved hierarchy...

Ally,

You may need to forgive us Australians for some of the comments, as we have seen a lot of work done by the various incarnations of Thomson's architectural firms. I have played 12 Thomson courses & it concerns me that The Berkshire Club has hired them, as I have loved The Berkshire Club's courses for many years.

I hope Tim does a great job.

[Josh Stevens]

I must confess to be worried.  I love the berkshire but am also an aussie and am  not a fan of this firm. 

Perhaps we confuse the firm with the individual, but certianly if my memory serves, just about every single piece of work done in Australia by the Aussie arm of this firm to a top line private club has been since dug up and totally redone at great expense.  A few of its public and resort examples exist.  Perhaps they have moved on, but they certainly erred on being a bit cookie cutter in the early days - and some of their green work was pretty awful.

I hope this Tim guy is up to snuff, but i would be getting him to do a few little trials about the place before letting him loose.

Having said that, are there any heathland experts - who was the chap that recently did some of the fairway bunkering on Sunnindgale old?? of the stuff around the 18th green on sunningdale new - none of it very impressive

[Brian Phillips]

Having said that, are there any heathland experts - who was the chap that recently did some of the fairway bunkering on Sunnindgale old?? of the stuff around the 18th green on sunningdale new - none of it very impressive

Josh,

I love this quote!  That chap was Hawtree and I cannot comment on the work....

Tim Lobb has an associate called Andrew Goosen who is pretty switched on if not green.

[Andrew Summerell]

who was the chap that recently did some of the fairway bunkering on Sunnindgale old?? of the stuff around the 18th green on sunningdale new - none of it very impressive

Josh, you may know Martin Hawtree's work best from the changes to Royal Melbourne's East course over the last few years. He has also done some work at Kooyonga in the last year or two.

[Neil_Crafter]

and Hawtree's work on the 5th at Kooyonga has had to be redone as it was over the top re fairway reshaping (read mogul installation).

As for the Berkshire, I was fortunate to be on the course this last Friday with Tim Lobb, just before he met with the committee to discuss the opening stages of the project. I also walked around for an hour and a half. Just some initial comments. I think Tim is more than capable of doing this work and they are certainly not rushing into anything. As I understand it there will be an initial stage of collecting old photos and aerials along with a test bunker or two that will probably be built out on the practice fairway, prior to any work commencing on the course. I also don't think this will be a quick process. Further thoughts later when I post some pics.

Also saw a couple of Hawtree's bunkers on Sunningdale Old and was a little underwhelmed. I have a couple of pics I can post later, but I have just flown in from the UK this morning and am still a bit fragile.

[Josh Stevens]

Doesnt sound a great wrap for Hawtree.  I havent played RM or Kooyonga for some years so cant comment on them, but the bunkers at Sunningdale were quite stark.  Never good when you play a course for the first time and then somewhere in the middle of a round you walk onto a tee, look down the fairway and think - hhmm, that cant be right, because a bunker looks as though it is has been dropped in from a great height and totally out place with every other bunker on the course.  Fingers crossed