Who Designed Glen Ridge?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's correct...it looks like about 60% of the holes stayed close to what was originally built, but a significant number of changes took place over the years, including by 1941.

[TEPaul]

Dean:

I know the other day on the phone you rattled off most of the details of the changes to the course after Park and the reasons for them----eg Tillinghast and RTJ but my recollection of the course from that one day there with you and Ron apparently isn't good enough anymore and I sort of struggled to follow sufficiently what you said.

I would love to pin it all done sometime soon and I'm sure I will with you but for now I'm pretty confused by that 1915 drawing that appears on here as it looks like one came off the 11th green and then walked up the length of #12 to a tee and then played back down towards the 11th green again as the 13th tee wasn't far from it. Do you think that was true or do you think that 1915 diagram was misdrawn there?

[Tom MacWood]

Wasn't Robert Thompson at one time the pro at Merion Cricket?

[Mike Cirba]

Wasn't Robert Thompson at one time the pro at Merion Cricket?

Tom,

I believe Thompson was at Merion prior to being at Knollwood, prior to coming to Glen Ridge.   There may have been others.

i'i·tin·er·ant (-tnr-nt, -tn-)
adj.
Traveling from place to place, especially to perform work or a duty: an itinerant judge

I'm unaware that he did any architectural work at either Merion, Knollwood, or other places his professional travels may have taken him.  

[SBendelow]

A May 13, 1900 article in the New York Tribune (page 5) provides some  information on Glen Ridge's early development.

[Tom MacWood]

As best as I can piece together Robert Thompson was the professional at Merion Cricket between 1898 and 1904. He them moved to Knollwood (1905 to 1910), before going to Glen Ridge where he stayed until 1926. The three jobs in 28 years is not overly transient is it?

I read in one account that said Thompson was from North Berwick...I believe Merion has had a few pros from NB.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

From your searches on Mr. Thompson, have you come across any indication that he was involved in any design or construction projects prior to Glen Ridge?   Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

I have not. Perhaps you meant to say inexperienced rather than itinerant?

Everyone has to start somewhere don't they. Do you think the original 1911 design of GR was all that sophisticated?

[Mike Cirba]

I have not. Perhaps you meant to say inexperienced rather than itinerant?

Everyone has to start somewhere don't they. Do you think the original 1911 design of GR was all that sophisticated?

Tom,

Actually, having been on that property, and seeing the way the creek was used, the original design was pretty darn good.  

Certainly itinerant Willie Park didn't seem to have a problem with the general hole corridors and configurations later and retained many of them.  

It's also good to hear you say that everyone has to start somewhere.   I just wish you'd extend the same understanding to amateur designers of the time.    

I'm still not convinced that the design of Glen Ridge is Thompson's however.   Based on the language in the articles, it could have just as easily been a member committee or a paper job from someone else, or a one-day "18 stakes", with him superintending the construction, wouldn't you agree?

[Tom MacWood]

You're obviously a proponent of the parallel school of golf architecture.

[Mike Cirba]

You're obviously a proponent of the parallel school of golf architecture.

When that's what best fits the natural characteristics of the property in question, yes.   

Can you think why that may be?

[Matt_Ward]

What I found amazing is how much better it seems the old course was compared to a number of elements tied to the present one.

The present day 18th hole -- up the hill is quite special yet gets little attention from many -- especially those observant of the Jersey golf scene.

Interesting that the old 4th and 5th were changed -- you now have a better par-3 with the 11th and then the back end of the old 5th becomes the tee ground for the present day par-5 12th.

Also, the 2nd green and 3rd tee are pushed right up to the boundary with Ridgewood Avenue. Must have been some holes then.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'm still not convinced that the design of Glen Ridge is Thompson's however.   Based on the language in the articles, it could have just as easily been a member committee or a paper job from someone else, or a one-day "18 stakes" job, with him superintending the construction, wouldn't you agree?

[Dean Paolucci]

A May 13, 1900 article in the New York Tribune (page 5) provides some  information on Glen Ridge's early development.

Could someone help SBendelow post this article.  It would be very helpful to see what it has to offer the discussion.

[TEPaul]

Joe Bausch:

Could you possibly tap that May 13, 1900 New York Tribune article (page 5) on Glen Ridge and post it on here for Dean and the rest?

Dean:

When it comes to finding old newspaper articles buried in time we have some pretty good research moles on here. And when it comes to newspaper articles buried REALLY deep in time we also have the odd SUPER-mole such as Joseph Bausch, who professionally doubles as a Chemistry professor of High Esteem at Villanova Universtiy. Joseph Bausch became world famous a few years ago because on his own he actually cracked the patented and ULTRA secret recipe of the TWINKY! Or was it the BABY RUTH? Well, it was one or the other or something like that which is equally awe-inspiring.

I'll tell ya, the guy is truly amazing!

[Joe Bausch]

A May 13, 1900 article in the New York Tribune (page 5) provides some  information on Glen Ridge's early development.

Could someone help SBendelow post this article.  It would be very helpful to see what it has to offer the discussion.

SBendelow:  are you sure you have that date and page number correct?  And the name of the paper as well?

[TEPaul]

"SBendelow:  are you sure you have that date and page number correct?  And the name of the paper as well?"


Come on Joseph! Even if it was in one of the issues of the 1900 Sacramento Clarion and Gold Digger newspaper I expect you to find it and produce it by no later than the end of this day!
 
 

[Joe Bausch]

On page 5 of the following day is this blurb involving a Bendelow.

[Dean Paolucci]

Wizard-like!

[TEPaul]

What did I tell you Dean? This guy is just unbelievable this way. He can find you anything in the papers from the depths of the past. If you want the true story behind the Girl on The Swing and the unfortunate murder of Sanford White this UBER-SUPERSTAR mole will find it for you! I've heard he even found some never-before-published photographs that were in the possession of the old Brooklyn Eagle newspaper of the inside of Charlie Macdonald's infamous Hen House; and not just of the inside of his infamous Hen House but of the inside of his infamous Hen House when it was actually in operation at app. 2:30am on Friday June 11, 1915!

[Mike Cirba]

Joe's the master of disaster.   Ain't no architectural archeological job too big or small...  

Speaking of Mr. Stuart Bendelow...I received a letter inquiry from him this week and the answer to his questions is

"The Oregonian"
3/15/1914

Mr. Bendelow...that posting of mine about TB back in 2008 was from an article found and provided to me by Joe Bausch.

Hope that helps in your searching!  

[Tom MacWood]

What year did Tilly work at Glen Ridge? Was it before or after Park?

[Joe Bausch]

What year did Tilly work at Glen Ridge? Was it before or after Park?

Young's book says 1923.

[TEPaul]

"What year did Tilly work at Glen Ridge? Was it before or after Park?"




From what I can glean from Dean and this thread it looks like, at this point, what the club or anyone else knows, the architectural/architect chronological evolution of the course at its present site goes pretty much like this (at this point);

1. Perhaps R. Thompson and membership on the original routing and design (1911, 12, 13-15)
2. Willie Park Jr, apparently around 1918
3. Tillinghast, apparently in the early 1920s, apparently redid at least two holes (par 3s?)
4. RTJ, a member, 1970, redid the 9th due to tennis
5. About five years ago, Forse Design with a restoration led by club member Dean Paolucci.

If there is more on the architectural/architect evolution of the course from 1911 until now I'm not aware of it and the foregoing is the way Dean pretty much laid it out to me.

However, I think Dean knows all the particulars of why Tillinghast and RTJ worked on the course, when and what specifically they did. If that's true and there is some good photographic evidence both before Tillie and before RTJ, I believe, at this point, it is very possible to just back out the Tillie and RTJ changes and then compare the changes to the course (seemingly in a number of ways) against that March 28, 1915 article and diagram (particularly the hole by hole descriptions) that Joe Bausch found, and in that manner it should to some pretty good degree of accuracy show what and what-all Willie Park Jr did at Glen Ridge GC.

It appears to me some land might've been sold off fairly early on like the second half of the original 4th, the 5th and the 7th and a bit of land may've been picked up on the northeast corner on the other side of the road from the clubhouse. And the original 17th is gone and the 16th was turned from a par 4 into a par 3 (17th) presumably by Park.

To me the most interesting Willie Park Jr stuff to look at will probably be considerable resequencing, some altered bunkering and bunker patterns from the hole by hole descpritions of bunkers and greenshapes and sizes in that 1915 article and some green building or rebuilding.

[Tom MacWood]

Dean
Do you know specifically what year Tilly redesigned GR, or is it just a general period that you suspect?