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Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 06:46:09 AM »
Tom,

That's really interesting.

I wonder if Park ever knew that the pre-war plans he created for Ashbourne, Philmont, and Schuylkill actually were built by the early 20s, some years after they were actually drawn.


If the plans were drawn pre-War they wouldn't have been drawn by Park. He didn't come over until 1916.

Tom,

I should have said "Prior to US involvement in WWI".    I don't have all the details in front of me, but if memory serves, plans for each course were drawn in the 1916-20 timeframe.

Matt_Ward

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2010, 11:15:13 AM »
Dean:

Any plans at GR for any tee extensions ?

Also, the 18th, as I said before, is really one of the grand finishing holes in the area -- gets little attention from many in NJ and elsewhere.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2010, 11:51:01 AM »
As a result of the stock market crash of 1929, the officers of the Club reduced  dues, created special categories of memberships and sent letters to the community in order to keep the Club alive.  The membership drive brought in 126 new members and the Club reorganized under the National Bankruptcy Act.

Boy,

Is this relevant for today or what?  


Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 05:11:38 PM »
A bit more information, this time from November 1913 after the "new" course had been opened for play.

Again, a bit frustratingly it's difficult to tell from the description whether Thompson (Thomson (sp?)) was the one responsible for the design or only construction of these changes.

Still, it seems in an age of very itinerant professionals that he was with the club through the building of their new course.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 05:13:28 PM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 07:51:56 PM »
Wow, this one is another totally fascinating one I did not fully appreciate until this afternoon! I admit I did not fully appreciate it until now because I didn't read this entire thread carefully enough and consequently I did not totally consider some of the interesting and perhaps heretofore not considered chronolgical realities (some perhaps only potential chronological realites at this point) involved in this club's and particularly its present site's history as well as in some of the chronolgical realities of it attributed architect, Willie Park Jr.

So what are they all and what do they ultimately mean?

And what did the club and its recorded architectural history know before now?


To the first question I would say it can be mostly determined now by submitting the known facts and their chronology to a really good time-line analysis.

To the second question I would say the only respectful and considerate thing to do is to get in contact with the club or perhaps its best architectural historical expert and also its present consulting architect FIRST before putting this material and its analysis and discussion on this website and potentially blind-siding and unnecessarily surprising or even disappointing the club or its architect before they have a chance to react and respond.

I think I just did that by calling the club's historical expert and recent restoration leader Dean Paolucci. I got him at his son's lacrosse game this afternoon and I got the club's consulting architect on some windswept green in Colorado (I think the Broadmoor) also this afternoon. Both said let's go with a really good timeline analysis of all the available facts including a few perhaps heretofore not well considered and see what it shows the club and others interested.

So let's begin a really good timeline analysis of all the presently known facts to date.





 



« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 07:55:06 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 08:05:54 PM »
Tom,

I can try to do that, but as I mentioned on the phone earlier today, I certainly wouldn't want to blindside anyone at the club, much less Dean with any information, and I also would reiterate that what I've found to date would hardly be called definitive as the wording about Thompson's role is pretty vague.

My curiosity in starting this thread was simply due to the routing map from 1915 that Joe Bausch posted on the other thread and recognizing that much of the routing seemed similar to today's course.   As a big fan of both Willie Park as well as Glen Ridge (which, Park himself listed among his courses that he worked on in the list Tom MacWood provided earlier), I was simply trying to find out who did what when.   Today's course certainly does bear some Park fingerprints.

I certainly don't have any club records or minutes and simply have tried to see what news accounts at that time reported.   Again, if the club would prefer to do this off-line to compare notes, I'm more than happy to comply. 

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 08:18:06 PM »
Did the club think Willie Park Jr routed and designed their course on its present site? They may have and if they did what does a really good timeline analysis say about that that the club might not have heretofore known or understood?

I would say they may've never known or understood that Willie Park Jr may not have been in this country between about 1897 or 1898 and 1916.

Was the club aware of that course routing diagram that appeared in that 1915 New York newspaper article that Joe Bausch recently produced on another thread recently? Apparently they were aware of it and have had it in the club-----maybe not just the newspaper article but they do have the actual routing diagram in the club.

And so if they did not realize when Park Jr was or wasn't in this country in about a twenty year timespan they could not have had any way of knowing that Park could not have done that routing in 1915 since he probably wasn't in this country when the club bought the new site in 1911 and the year of that routing diagram (1915).

To fill in the any blanks in the architectural evolution of the course now all they need to do is to put that 1915 diagram against all the architectural changes they have recorded that were made to the course after that diagram which will show the redesign and architectural work to the greens and apparently a number of other things and changes Park did, those things they have recorded that Tillinghast did and perhaps even Rees Jones did before the recent restoration done by Forse design.

So this is all interesting and I think the club feels the same as of today and is fine with it all. But I think the most important thing is to go to the club with new information first, just as was so well done recently with the remarkable North Shore architecture and architect attribution investigation. This should all be done before putting it on here and trying to purposefully blind-side them with information they may not have been aware of. It's much better and much more respectful to the club this way than just trying to prove another club and its architectural history wrong from afar----and worse still under some bogus assumption or suggestion on here that they are trying to benefit from an attribution attachment to a famous architect or even create an inaccurate legend out of their own which was the suggestion from a few on here in the case of Merion and Hugh Wilson or even Crump and Pine Valley.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 08:25:00 PM by TEPaul »

Dean Paolucci

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Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2010, 08:49:58 PM »
Tom - this is the attribution from #1 above.

Willie Park, Jr. is credited with the current site and layout.  A. W. Tillinghast was responsible for the present 13th and 14th hole when some land was sold off.  Member at the time Robert Trent Jones, Sr. redesigned the 9th hole to accomodate the rise of tennis in the early 70's.  His site super was Rodger Rulewich.  Ron Forse and Jim Nagle created our Master Plan and led the restoration effort 5 years ago which returned the course to its present state.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2010, 08:58:19 PM »
"Tom,
I can try to do that, but as I mentioned on the phone earlier today, I certainly wouldn't want to blindside anyone at the club, much less Dean with any information,"


MikeC:

Don't worry about that. I just had a long conversation this afternoon with Dean after I talked to you and he's just fine with all of it and he assured me the club would be too. Like me and some others on here sometimes, Dean feels maybe some people on here take some of this revelation stuff they come up with a bit too seriously thinking it's way more important than it really is. And I had a nice chat with Ron Forse about it after I spoke with you. He's cool with it too. I just basically wanted to get what a really good timeline analysis may show with some of this information out there to the club and Ron first before guess who tries to make another big issue out of something like this and try to hang this one on his belt somehow as another revelation from him about how clubs get it wrong and even including purposefully. We've already had his "Philadelphia Syndrome" crap and I doubt we want to have some "Northern New Jersey Syndrome" crap from him too over Glen Ridge GC!  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2010, 09:10:27 PM »
Dean:

Thanks a lot for #32. I did see that on #1 and tried to consider what it might mean with this Park Jr chronology in the USA, when the present site was purchased and that 1915 newspaper article and what it said and including that 1915 course diagram that I think you said the club has had anyway. I don't know if the club had that newspaper article or knew what it said or considered it.

As far as I can tell, the only things the club and its history may not have reflected is what those newspaper articles from the 1911-1915 timeframe said as well as the fact that Park may not have been in this country between the late 1890s and 1916.

You asked me if I am sure that Park was not in this country in that timespan and I am not; the only reason I mentioned that is that question has been asked and posed so many times and no one seems to have any indication that he ever was here in that timeframe including his great nephew Mungo Park who wrote a really good essay for a periodical on the history of all the Parks in the last couple of years.

And as I said to you on the phone today I consider any investigation of the details of the architectural history of Glen Ridge GC a success on here just to have you be part of it. I believe this site needs to encourage and foster respect on here by all our participants for the clubs in these kinds of investigations just to earn the respect of the clubs with the things we make our topics of discussion. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 09:18:15 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2010, 09:17:24 PM »
Tom,

If everyone is fine with it, tomorrow I can try to post a timeline as represented in some of the news articles, as well as in the two pieces Tom MacWood produced.

If nothing else, it should give us a firm timeline on when the club moved to the new course, when it opened, etc.,which might be useful in trying to understand any related information.

As I said earlier, I'm simply trying to understand Park's role, and if we'd rather do that off-GCA, I'm fine with that too.   If anyone wants to contact me offline, that's fine too.

Just let me know if I can help piece this together, because that's my only motivation here.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2010, 09:18:34 PM »
Tom Paul,
You and I just had a very cordial exchange of private messages, and let me empasize the word 'cordial' in that exchange.

Now that it seems this particular club, Glen Ridge, has no compunctions about delving into a search for its history it becomes incumbent on all the players to put aside personal grudges, shun invective, and proceed in a scholarly manner.

The alternative to that approach has already been tested over a long period of time, to no ones satisfaction.  ;)


p.s. I'm not suggesting that kid gloves be used, just that the gloves stay on.  

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2010, 09:30:05 PM »
"Now that it seems this particular club, Glen Ridge, has no compunctions about delving into a search for its history it becomes incumbent on all the players to put aside personal grudges, shun invective, and proceed in a scholarly manner."

JimK:

I couldn't agree with you more.

And I would say that if we happened to have all the participants on this thread and subject that we had on the Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia, North Shore, Westhampton et al threads, and that after a period of time there was no personal grudges, no invective and this one proceeded along in a scholarly manner for a fairly good amount of time it would be a roaring success all the way around including, hopefully, in the opinions of these subject clubs. That's all important to me but the latter is really important to me as I believe you know.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2010, 09:43:31 PM »
To date the few verbal darts that were thrown, from the east toward the midwest, have been ignored, that's a good start.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2010, 09:45:23 PM »
"Tom,
If everyone is fine with it, tomorrow I can try to post a timeline as represented in some of the news articles, as well as in the two pieces Tom MacWood produced."


Mike:

I'm very confident as of now that Glen Ridge GC is fine with it, so go for a timeline representing everything on here that's been presented and discovered. It's all on this thread (except for Joe Baush's Glen Ridge diagram on the other thread) anyway if one reads the whole thing and on Reply #31 I tried to show what some of this material may mean with a really good timeline analysis applied to it all.

What I hope doesn't happen though is that we have some endless multi-page argument about what precisely those newspaper articles mean or say about Thomson and the people at the club apparently involved with creating the course between 1911 and 1915 or before Park Jr got back here to the USA in 1916 or thereafter.

They just say what they say. I don't think any of us or anybody anywhere else needs some English grammar structure lessons about what they do and don't say or mean. As I said to Dean the best thing to happen, in my opinion, is that the club just take those articles (they may not have heretofore had or been aware of) and put them into their club archives and even into their club history if they feel like it and then any interested party in the architectural history of Glen Ridge can just go to the club's archives or history and find them and interpret for themselves what it all means or doesn't mean.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 09:48:28 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2010, 06:18:58 AM »
Tom,

Sounds good.

I have a few other additional things I've come across, as well, so later today I'll put a timeline together with contributions from Tom MacWood, Joe Bausch, and moi.

I'm hoping the club finds them useful....thanks.

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2010, 09:11:02 AM »
In the past few years, many old newspapers have become available and searchable online, which can be a very valuable resource for researchers and for clubs which may have lost internal records over the years due to fire, misplacement, etc.

In that regard, while there is a wealth of information available, it should always be viewed in context of other available evidence, and if there is anything we've learned here collectively the past few years, some of the language that was used at the time to describe what we know today as design and construction was very inconsistently applied, and sometimes flat out erroroneous.   In other cases, old articles have led to new knowledge and understanding of the historical origins of the sport, in this country and abroad.  

In any case, with that caveat, I'm hoping the following timeline of articles proves useful to the great club at Glen Ridge and its historians.   Please feel free to add other information as relevant and appropriate;

January 18th, 1911




March 7th, 1911




April 10th, 1911




September, 1912




May 1913




November 19th, 1913




March 28th, 1915




Thanks to Joe Bausch and Tom MacWood for their contributions here.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:17:59 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2010, 09:38:01 AM »
Perhaps someone with more talent than me could post an aerial of today's golf course for comparison to the 1915 routing?

Thanks in advance.

Matt_Ward

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2010, 09:41:31 AM »
Great stuff guys -- boy when I see the pics of the former holes I only wish that were true today. There is no par-3 17th on the same side of the clubhouse as the schematic indicates.

The old 2nd going straight uphill must have been some hole. Ditto the 3rd as it extended all the way back to nearly Ridgewood Ave.

Thanks for posting ...

The only holes on the same side of the clubhouse now are the downhill par-4 1st and 10th holes -- and the uphill 9th and 18th holes -- also par-4's. The 9th green location was also shifted as Dean mentioned a number of years ago to provide for the existign tennis courts.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2010, 09:51:15 AM »
Here is a Google aerial from 2007.  I'm not familiar with the course hole numbering currently, however.

The 1915 diagram is below it.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:55:38 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2010, 11:24:10 AM »
If the club wants to do a comprehensive "design evolution report" of the course on their present site, it seems like they now arguably have some pretty decent "assets" to be able to do it. I've seen some clubs attempting to do a comprehensive "design evolution report" of the entire architectural history of their course have less or less good "assets" than Glen Ridge apparently now has and I’ve seen others who have a lot more “assets” and other “assets” that are more detailed and explanatory.

So what are all the “assets” (information) that Glen Ridge now has and what are the new "assets" (information) that Glen Ridge just discovered that they may not have had before, or have not been that aware of, or have never really analyzed that carefully before?

At this point, and having spoken a little bit to Dean and Ron Forse yesterday I would have to say it is the following “assets” (information) in order of importance that they may not have had before or considered that carefully, at least when it comes to Willie Park Jr architectural contribution to the course on that site.

1. The realization that Willie Park Jr may potentially not have been in this country between the late 1890s and 1916 and what that may mean to their architectural evolution between the course before Willie first arrived and before anyone changed the course after him.

2. The realization (perhaps very recent) of those old newspaper articles from the 1911 to 1915 timeframe that describe the original creation of the course at the present site by particularly Robert Thomson (the Glen Ridge pro) and perhaps some committee input.

3. Even though Dean seemed to say yesterday that the club has had that diagram drawing contained in that March 28, 1915 article, I'm not sure he said or meant they also have that actual newspaper article that fairly comprehensively describes the holes on that diagram drawing. (on that particular point there may be a fairly interesting historical reality involved here----eg who actually drew that diagram drawing contained in that March 28, 1915 newspaper article? In other words, how would or how could a newspaper actually get an actual pre-existing stand alone course drawing into a newspaper article in 1915 (no copy machines, scanners etc). They probably couldn't and so it might've just required some newspaper man or other artist at the newspaper to draw it right into that newspaper article copy before it was a rolled onto the newspaper press and distributed the next morning).

Dean also seems to know and in very close detail the architectural changes made to the course by Tillinghast and by RTJ. Obviously those changes were done after Willie Park Jr.

Having apparently never been aware that Park Jr may’ve not been in this country between the late 1890s and 1916 Dean and the club may not have known or appreciated that the routing and course was done by someone other that Park----eg Thomson et al in the timeframe of 1911 and 1915 (that diagram and hole by hole newspaper description) after the club bought that property in 1911----thinking that Willie Park Jr may’ve done it at some point between the purchase of the property in 1911 and 1918 which seems to be the time the club thinks Park may’ve completed his project for Glen Ridge.

So if I were trying to do a complete “design evolution report” report of Glen Ridge I would start with that truly important March 28, 1915 newspaper report and its diagram (which the club has apparently had for some time—eg the diagram that is) and essentially do a detailed work up hole by hole of the way the course was and what it looked like in hole by hole architectural detail at that time (March 28, 1915). In that vein, the diagram itself is essentially a glorified “stick” routing that is very explanatory about the routing itself but pretty much useless when it comes to the all important “design” features of the individual holes such as “through the green” bunkering and such and particularly individual green designs (shapes, contours, sizes) and green-end bunkering and such. But luckily the hole by hole text descriptions in that article (March 28, 1915) is quite explanatory on such things as “through the green” bunkering, greens shapes, slopes, contours, and green-end bunkering.

So then after doing as detailed a hole by hole architectural description as possible from that article and the diagram of 1915, I would take the changes made to the course by Tillinghast and RTJ and just back those changes and redesigns out for the time being. From there I would begin to compare the course’s hole by hole redesigning and resequencing and such for basic routing changes and other redesigning that Tillie and RTJ did not do and compare it all very closely to that March 28, 1915 diagram for routing and resequencing changes and redesigning. The differences should logically show what Willie Park Jr did with Glen Ridge to some degree of accuracy.

All there is after that is the Forse restoration project in the last five years but Dean and Ron know that in minute detail because they both did it.

The only piece of the puzzle I can see that may not be that knowable is what the holes looked like in detail that Tillie and RTJ did or redesigned before RTJ and Tillie did those projects. Unless the club has some kind of photographic or descriptive evidence of what they looked like before those two redesign projects I suppose it would have to just be some degree of guess-work.

This is an interesting investigation with some new historic material on this website and again I'm very glad that Glen Ridge's Dean Paolucci has been on here and has been part of it.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 11:28:07 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2010, 11:20:27 PM »
Here is an old aerial of GR...I'm not certain of the date.

Dean Paolucci

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Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2010, 11:39:46 PM »
This is a 1941 aerial from the Department of Defense.  We used this as a reference point for the restoration.  Notice the other 18 holes to the north of the present course with similar features and characteristics.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2010, 11:42:42 PM »
Dean
Who should get the bulk of the credit for designing Glen Ridge?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Who Designed Glen Ridge?
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2010, 06:48:13 AM »
Although at first glance the 1915 course looks very similar to the later course, there were actually a good number changes made....including the reversal of several holes.  I see at least 8 new or significantly changed holes.

It looks like they added land in the upper right hand corner and the lower section.