[jkinney]

Oh, and I completely forgot.  For those of you who know the course, here is a breakdown of my personal stats.  Over five years, I have compiled a list of 98 rounds where I've kept hole-by-hole scores, with number of fairways, greens and putts thrown in for good measure.  Here are some averages:

1 - 4.43
2 - 4.28
3 - 3.28
4 - 4.27
5 - 4.50
6 - 4.35
7 - 3.43
8 - 5.27
9 - 4.26

OUT - 38.04

10 - 4.54
11 - 4.27
12 - 3.15
13 - 5.07
14 - 4.48
15 - 3.37
16 - 4.24
17 - 5.26
18 - 4.72

IN - 39.11
TOTAL - 77.15

FWY - 11.95/14
GREENS IN REGULATION - 10.31
PUTTS  32.60

[jkinney]

Oh, and I completely forgot.  For those of you who know the course, here is a breakdown of my personal stats.  Over five years, I have compiled a list of 98 rounds where I've kept hole-by-hole scores, with number of fairways, greens and putts thrown in for good measure.  Here are some averages:

1 - 4.43
2 - 4.28
3 - 3.28
4 - 4.27
5 - 4.50
6 - 4.35
7 - 3.43
8 - 5.27
9 - 4.26

OUT - 38.04

10 - 4.54
11 - 4.27
12 - 3.15
13 - 5.07
14 - 4.48
15 - 3.37
16 - 4.24
17 - 5.26
18 - 4.72

IN - 39.11
TOTAL - 77.15

FWY - 11.95/14
GREENS IN REGULATION - 10.31
PUTTS  32.60

Captain Kirk - This is impressive stuff indeed !

[John Kirk]

Mr. Kirk

Three things that pop out from those stats

#10 being your second hardest par 4 behind #18  (this is really suprising, unless it is a back pin on ten it isn't the second hardest par 4 on the course IMO, #4, #5, #14 are harder than #10)

And #2 ranking slightly harder than #4 (most people would agree that the tee shot and green are much harder at #4, though if the pin is in one of the sides on #4, it is very birdieable)

And that #13 is so close to par.  That is the one par 5 everyone complains about the green being too hard, but obviously here it shows it is the easiest par 5, which I agree with. 

Answering a few posts...ready, go!

Perhaps #10 is so tough because a)  The effective green size is small.  b)  The approach shot is usually played from a lie which promotes a pull or hook, but the area left of the green where getting and up and down for par is quite small.  c)  The drive is quite tough.  If you push or slice the ball, the result is often a 150-175 yard, steeply uphill approach from a very bad angle.

The difference between #2 and #4 is not statistically significant; they're the same.  Length is the primary difficulty factor, so you ight assume that 400 yards uphill is about as tough as 464 yards downhill.  But the two holes are very different, and two of the most interesting designs on the course.

[John Kirk]

John,

A while back I think you promised to provide something like this for Ballyneal.  I'd be interested in your stats there if you would be willing to provide them.

You could PM me the info if you'd rather.

Scott

Scott,

Let me play one more season at Ballyneal before putting the stats up.

I'm doing this at the courses I play, to help give me a better feel for what's difficult.

[John Kirk]

Could be that #10 is best approached with a fade.  Also, mostly uphill lies from the fairway promote pulls and hooks.  But it has a green with a very small effective size.

John and Peter,

What do you guys normally hit off of #10? 

Well it is a HUGE fairway, the only way to could miss this fairway is if you hit a snap hook, and even then it could possibly stay in.

It is 386 yards, all uphill

I hit driver everytime, and see no reason why to hit anything else.  After your drive depending on what side of the fairway you are on, you usually have anything from a 7 iron to a P-Wedge.  Like John said, it is a small green once you take out back pin position.  As long as you avoid hitting a pull or hook on the approach shot it isn't that bad.  Getting up and down from short left is your best option, if you go right of the green, auto bogey.

Definite driver.  The fartyher you hit the ball here, the better.

[John Kirk]

John,

I wish I had your accuracy!  12/14 fairways!  I don't even think I could do that at a pre-'second cut' Augusta National!

My accuracy at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow, a more typical parkland design with 35-50 yard wide fairways, is 7.23/13, or 55.6%.

[jonathan_becker]

John and Peter,

Driver is what I figured.  I hit driver, sw on the green with the approach shot way above my feet. I just played for a big pull.  

Once I got to the green, I was surprised at how the margin for error was fairly small.  The flag was in the front and I almost hit it in the back bunker.  But, with a short iron in your hand, I have no problem with a tight approach.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Here are a couple of pics of 10 to refresh the memory for people.  It is all uphill from the tee, and then the green has a SEVERE back tier.  If the pin is in the back, it is the toughest hole on the course that day.  The green complex is very interesting and provides for some fun putts.  I actually backdoored a putt on the tenth hole, first time that has ever happened to me.  I was putting from the leftside of the green up the slope on the right, jammed it by the left and came back down right into the hole. 

[jonathan_becker]

Peter,

#10 green is much bigger than I remember!!  The flagstick was in the exact location of your second photo.  I was on the fringe flirting with that back bunker.

[John Kirk]

John:

Surprised to see that your stroke average for #17 was as high as it is.  In fact, you seem very consistent from one hole to the next, nearly all of them between 0.2 and 0.5 strokes above par.  I would have expected a bit more variance.

Peter:

I am sure lots of people complain about #13 green, but to me it is VERY difficult when the hole is top left, and not so difficult otherwise.  I think people remember the left pin and complain about it more than is warranted.  (And without that hole location, the hole would just be too easy.)

Remember that I play #17 from the back tees almost exclusively, which 560 instead of 505 yards.  The drive is pretty tough, with the downhill component increasing the scatter of the tee shots.  Then I hit 4-wood or 7-wood for the second shot, and a wedge for the uphill third shot.  I never reach the green in two.

For those who don't know the course, the 17th green has a high left plateau and a low right basin which tends to gather balls.  As is often the case with greens with distinct left and right areas, the approach to the left side of the green is best handled from the left side of the fairway.  Similarly, right side approach to the right side of the green.  This is one hole I definitely try to play to the same side on my second shot.

The left plateau is wonderful, filled with micro-contours and perhaps the most difficult to read on the course.  Right side pins are great birdie opportunities, but once again it's tough to read the small breaks.  If you miss your half of the green on the approach, getting into the hole in two shots is a less than 50% proposition.

With regards to #13, the green has often been the subject of controversy, and there was some talk about softening the contours.  I have consistently reminded management that the green is the primary defense, and the hole would be too easy without the challenge.

[Carl Nichols]

For those who don't know the course, the 17th green has a high left plateau and a low right basin which tends to gather balls.  As is often the case with greens with distinct left and right areas, the approach to the left side of the green is best handled from the left side of the fairway.  Similarly, right side approach to the right side of the green.  This is one hole I definitely try to play to the same side on my second shot.

John:
I've never played Stone Eagle, but I'm not sure I would make this generalization about what side of the fairway is best from which to approach a green with distinct sides.  Isn't it often the case that you'd rather be in the opposite side of the fairway, so you have a better angle and don't have to worry as much about fronting hazards? 

[John Kirk]

Hi Carl,

Good catch.  I didn't construct that sentence quite right.  I know of a few examples where the opposite strategy is evident, where the left half of the green is best approached from the left, and vice versa.

On #17 Stone Eagle, the reason is a green that has a high left shelf and low left basin.

On #18 Ballyneal, the reason is two exceptionally nasty pot bunkers in the front of the center of the green.

On #9 Old Macdonald, the reason is a longitudinal ridge bisecting the left and right sides.

In general, the bisecting ridge seems the best way to create the strategic anomaly.  Perhaps a good discussion could be had exploring this concept.

[Bill_McBride]

Hi Carl,

Good catch.  I didn't construct that sentence quite right.  I know of a few examples where the opposite strategy is evident, where the left half of the green is best approached from the left, and vice versa.

On #17 Stone Eagle, the reason is a green that has a high left shelf and low left basin.

On #18 Ballyneal, the reason is two exceptionally nasty pot bunkers in the front of the center of the green.

On #9 Old Macdonald, the reason is a longitudinal ridge bisecting the left and right sides.

In general, the bisecting ridge seems the best way to create the strategic anomaly.  Perhaps a good discussion could be had exploring this concept.

Another very good example would be #13 at Rustic Canyon, with the monstrous and deep bunker dead front center of a green with wings on both side and a very narrow center behind the bunker.  You absolutely, positively cannot be on the wrong side of the fairway approaching a pin to either side.

[John Kirk]

Bill,

I'm going to start a new thread on this and see where it goes.

JK

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I'm going to start a new thread on this and see where it goes.

JK

Don't forget the Lions Mouth!

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