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Jay Flemma

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Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« on: April 08, 2010, 07:27:03 PM »
For those of you in New England, I really enjoyed my day at CT Nat'l.  Mark Mungeum course, lots of center line hazards, a great Principal's Nose at 18, terrific green contours, and nice elevation change.  It's a fairly easy walk too, and an excellent price - $40!

I played Shining Rock today.  It had some nice elements, but was a brutal walk with two switchbacks.  pluses were a great two-shot Redan and a Punchbowl.  Minuses were the routing (too many short par-4s, and long par 3-s - shortest was 190), and the penal nature of the property.  It's a good price too..$30-70 depending on tee time and season.  Architecture heads will like CT Nat'l a lot, Shining Rock not so much, but it is cheap...especially for Boston area.

Pix later.

How is Newport National?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:16:20 AM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 09:52:34 AM »
Jay, from a thread last year that unfortunately garnered little interest:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40814.0/

With the price and quality of golf CN has become one of the courses I play the most.  I do not think there is a better bargain in the northeast.  It may be a matter of definition, but I found the greens to have more slope then contour.  Are the two new par 3's done (9 and 15)?  Altho I kind of like the old 9 - blind, up hill about 110 yards.

As to Newport National I believe it to be the best public in New England.  I played Red Tail this week and while Red Tail is excellent I prefer NN.  Very different terrain and styles, but similar as to collection areas around the greens, allowing for a variety of shots.  NN is also the best conditioned public course I have played.  Belongs in the top 100 publics...Biggest minus is pace of play in the summer when the tourists descend on Newport.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 09:55:18 AM by Cliff Hamm »

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 09:59:46 AM »
Jay, I'm originally from CT (Enfield).  I am now in Boston.  I used to play CT Nat'l back when it was Putnam Country Club, did you?  I'm curious how the renovations have hurt / helped the course.  I remember the old 8th hole used to be a short par that drops about 100' tee to green....the small green butting against a small pond.  Tricky, but fun hole with incredible views.  I hope they left it alone...
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 10:05:28 AM »
Nick...played Putnam once and never returned.  Interestingly, re-design did not change the routing.  8 is still there (see the link).  A great number of trees were taken, fairways shaped, bunkers added but the fairway corridors are the same as when it was Putnam.  I believe i also read greens are also the same, but I could be mistaken.

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 10:18:57 AM »
Cliff,

I agree.  It looks like they widened up many of the corridors.  The old corridors were uncomfortably tight...and the fairways uneven.  The current work seems to have helped alleviate those problems.  I'll have to get back there soon.
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Brad Tufts

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 10:28:49 AM »
Is the work all done at CN?

Might have to give it a try once everything is finished...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 10:32:22 AM »
Do I sense a GCA foursome at CT Nat'l this spring or summer?
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Sean_A

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 10:56:16 AM »
Jay, from a thread last year that unfortunately garnered little interest:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40814.0/

With the price and quality of golf CN has become one of the courses I play the most.  I do not think there is a better bargain in the northeast.  It may be a matter of definition, but I found the greens to have more slope then contour.  Are the two new par 3's done (9 and 15)?  Altho I kind of like the old 9 - blind, up hill about 110 yards.

As to Newport National I believe it to be the best public in New England.  I played Red Tail this week and while Red Tail is excellent I prefer NN.  Very different terrain and styles, but similar as to collection areas around the greens, allowing for a variety of shots.  NN is also the best conditioned public course I have played.  Belongs in the top 100 publics...Biggest minus is pace of play in the summer when the tourists descend on Newport.



Ah yes, now I remember.  I was completely turned off by all the directional mounding. Its as if the archie thought, I'll use mounds instead of bunkers.  They do look weird aesthetically, but that is ok.  What I object to is building so many of the these things yet so few are in the centre of the park. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jay Flemma

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Re: Connecticut National really good, Shining Rock to open in two weeks
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 12:47:53 PM »
They are not quite done with the changes, but will be in a few weeks.  I never played it as Putnam.  I really liked the wide fairways, center-line bunkers and the Principal's Nose.  I'll post some pix, but the price is terrific.

I'll try NN later this year.  I also LOVE Red Tail, so Cliff, it'll be a tough act to top:)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

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Pix from Conn.  Nat'l.  Those of you wanting a NE day should think about this Mark Mungeum course.

Principal's Nose bunker at 18




The first tee





Great perpendicular hazards all over the course...





and nice sweeping fairways too





diagonal hazard at 3...bite off as much as you like




Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 07:50:32 PM »
This course looks great. When I am out in CT in August, it may be chosen for play!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Phil McDade

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Pix from Conn.  Nat'l.  Those of you wanting a NE day should think about this Mark Mungeum course.

Principal's Nose bunker at 18




How, exactly, is this considered a Principal's Nose bunker?

Here's my understanding of the concept of a Principal's Nose bunker, based on how it plays on the 16th hole of TOC.

The bunker is placed roughly in the middle of the fairway, near where a drive might end up. The choice for the player is: play left of the bunker(s); play right of the bunker(s); play short of them; or try to carry them. From Ran's review of Yale: "The original purpose of the Principal’s Nose bunker at the sixteenth at The Old Course at St. Andrews was to create two different playing corridors off that tee."

In particular, at the 16th at TOC, the tee shot right of the Principal's Nose bunkers is the riskier route, as the player is faced with OB tight to the right side of the fairway. But the player is then rewarded with a much easier approach shot into the 16th green. The safer play off the tee at  #16 is left, but the player is then faced with a more difficult approach into the green. See this from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/4629325.stm

The bunker shown here at Conn. National does not appear, from this photo, to adhere to those central tenets. There appears to be little if any fairway corridor left of the bunkers. Plus, the photo -- at least from this angle -- suggests that playing left of the bunkers yields no appreciable advantage; in fact, just the opposite -- the approach from the left looks more taxing than one from right of the bunkers.

It's a nice-looking bunker, and it probably gives one pause on the tee. But it doesn't appear to my eyes to be a Principal's Nose bunker.



Phil McDade

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 08:09:46 AM »
Totally self-interested bump to see if there is any response to my question about the Principal's Nose bunker concept...maybe got lost in the weekend flurry of posts about successful N. Ireland golfers, dress codes, and dining room breakfasts. ;)

Jay Flemma

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 11:05:39 AM »
Phil...it does EXACTLY what the P's nose does.  Its right where the second shot on the par-5 should land.  There's room left, right, short or carry.  You're not seeing the land to the left as well from the angle of the photo.

Moreover, Mungeum designed so it looks like the original as well!  It also looks like the ones Banks does as well (Like Essex.)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 04:47:19 PM »
The Principal's Noses at Yale (#17) and Old White (#10) don't really come into play on any well-struck shot; rather, they seem to work to obscure the view of the shot that must travel over them.  I'm a fan of that type of bunker complex as much as one that will catch a lot of shots, personally, so I see little problem with the one at Connecticut National either.

I will definitely be looking to play this golf course this summer in order to review it for my Hartford Golf Examiner site, so if any GCAers are going out there for an impromptu outing, I would love to be a part of it if possible.

Cheers.

--Tim
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 04:51:12 PM »
Tim,

I'm trying to get out to CT National some weekend in the near future.  I will keep you posted. -Nick
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Phil McDade

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 04:57:42 PM »
Phil...it does EXACTLY what the P's nose does.  Its right where the second shot on the par-5 should land.  There's room left, right, short or carry.  You're not seeing the land to the left as well from the angle of the photo.

Moreover, Mungeum designed so it looks like the original as well!  It also looks like the ones Banks does as well (Like Essex.)

Jay:

How much room is there left of this bunker between the bunker and the rough? What might be a typical length of a second shot here? In other words, is there enough room left of this bunker complex for a 3-wood approach?

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 05:08:30 PM »
Phil...it does EXACTLY what the P's nose does.  Its right where the second shot on the par-5 should land.  There's room left, right, short or carry.  You're not seeing the land to the left as well from the angle of the photo.

Moreover, Mungeum designed so it looks like the original as well!  It also looks like the ones Banks does as well (Like Essex.)

Jay:

How much room is there left of this bunker between the bunker and the rough? What might be a typical length of a second shot here? In other words, is there enough room left of this bunker complex for a 3-wood approach?

It doesn't appear there is much room left.  There is some room right.  I remember this fairway being very tight, unless Mungeam widened it as part of the renoavtions (I have yet to get back).  I would assume the placement of this trap is more based on carry / layup vs than left or right.  
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Jay Flemma

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 05:22:12 PM »
It was widened...it doesn't look like that now at all.

Phil...how the hell do I know how many yards it is for the second shot.  :):)  I didn't bring my surveying equipment.  I didn't know someone was gonna ask me a tape measure question.  There's also no yardage book.  I played it once.  I saw someone get in it, but not me.  Why don't you come out to play it?  I'll meet you there and we can play together and have a swordfush sandwich and iced tea in the clubhouse for lunch:)  Maybe we can meet Nick and Tim and their crew.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 05:25:46 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »
 



These two pix from my posting last year show there is no room to the  left of the bunker.  For those of us that drive 220, at most, I am unable to clear the bunkers in two (about 210) with my 16 degree hybrid.

BTW played it last week and the two new par 3's are not being used.  Continues to be rough around the edges and they are still taking trees (right of 2, especially).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 06:51:28 PM by Cliff Hamm »

Nick Campanelli

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2010, 08:08:52 PM »
The hole also looks much better now that the "lone" pine/cedar has been removed 50yds short right of the green.  

Cliff, which of the par 3's are new/renovated? The only one I remember from my last round is 9.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 08:11:41 PM by Nick Campanelli »
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 08:14:36 PM »
You are correct with 9.  Altho I continue to like the original.  Uphill about 110 yards.  Semi-blind. I don't think it hurts the course much using this...The other is 15.  Now about 130 to a smallish green simply tucked into a spot on the course.  The new hole is to the right.  Both are growing in altho I have no info as to when they will allow play.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 09:14:18 PM »
They'll be open this month.  I'll have pics of those holes soon.  yes, nine is a little zany now, but it'll be better with the new green.

Nick, you'll see the label on this pic is "Putnam Country Club" - the old design.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:22:14 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2010, 09:45:36 PM »
Cliff,
Is the mounding as prominent in person? As someone who's seen it in person, do you think it's just due to the leafless trees?


edit: or Jay  and Nick, who have also been there.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:50:43 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil McDade

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Re: Connecticut National really good ***NOW WITH PICS***
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2010, 10:37:10 PM »
Cliff:

Thanks for the pics. They help clarify.

Jay:

That's not a Principal's Nose bunker. It may look like one, but strategically it's a left-center bunker that plays on the mind of the golfer on the second shot. That's all fine and dandy, but I can see no reason to go left of that bunker complex. I can see going over it, playing a shot short of it, or playing right of it. But there is no appreciable corridor left of that bunker complex that makes it a rational option, at least from what I've seen.

If you can get me from Madison WI to Hartford, be glad to join you for a round.

(I've been summarily smacked down here on GCA -- good naturedly, of course ;) -- for suggesting the 4th at Lawsonia is Redan-esque, or has Redan-like playing characteristics. If I'm going to endure that, I'm going to insist that others come to my defense for suggesting this is not a Principal's Nose bunker.)


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