[Carl Johnson]

One of the TV commentators (Ian Baker-Finch?) at the Masters, glorifying no. 12, just said that it was "one of the most copied holes" in golf.  Is this true?  If so, how many copies can you guys name.

[Link Walsh]

Just heard that too.  Do you think he meant at courses with replica holes?   

[John Moore II]

Well, I know International World Tour in Myrtle Beach has a copy of #12 on the course (they have 11 and 13 too). That's the only one I know of. But as far as holes designed in the same way and not exact copies, who knows how many there are, I've never really paid attention.

[C. Squier]

#12 at Muirfield Village

[Jeff_Brauer]

Truthfully, I don't see it copied that much. I have never even thought about copying it, or if I did, it has never made it to a final design. I guess its just too hard for an average course.

BTW, the new LINKS mag has a neat article by Geoff Shackleford which everyone ought to read. It contains a segment where every part of the spectrum evaluates the 12th at ANGC and it is SPOT ON.  I am now a fan of GS based on that one article and think that format - design comments from USGA rules official, competitor, gca participant, superintendent, club member, specator - shows all the differing perspectives that never seem to take it all in as a whole.

[Carl Johnson]

Just heard that too.  Do you think he meant at courses with replica holes?   

I took it to mean "replicas" in either the sense of "look-alikes" or not exactly "look-alikes" but with the same challenges.  Of course, this begs the broader question of what "copied" means.  However, we'll just have to speculate about exactly what he may have meant.

[Mark Arata]

Golden Ocala and Tour 18 in Houston both have replica holes of 12.......the one at Golden Ocala was very good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

I think IBF mispoke if he was referencing # 12 as a template hole.

Perhaps he was alluding to the diagonal like green.

# 13 at Pine Tree is similar with extensive sand bunkering replacing the water.

But, in my limited travels I haven't seen a hole where my immediate reaction was, "wow, that's # 12 at ANGC"

[John Moore II]

Pat-Limited travels my rear end. You're likely one of the most traveled on this site. 

I have to think that IBF was meaning it was copied to the point of shot values and general look. Because when he said that, I didn't really recall having played any courses that had a hole that really struck me as looking like that. Of course, I'm not nearly as traveled as you, though I have recently passed 100 courses played.

[Mark Chaplin]

Isn't 12th at ANGC modelled on the Colt designed 7th at Stoke Poges??

[Mark Pearce]

Isn't 12th at ANGC modelled on the Colt designed 7th at Stoke Poges??

I understood that that was a mistake and that the hole at ANGC which was based on Stoke Poges' 7th was the orignial 16th at ANGC.  I haven't played Augusta, obviously, but I have seen it on TV and have played Stoke Poges and the 7th there does bear a remarkable resemblance to 12 at Augusta.

There's also a similar hole at Pitreavie, another MacKenzie in Fife.

[Mark Chaplin]

Dan Moore and I have been enjoying a few days playing some great courses including a trio of Colt classics in Sunningdale New, St Georges Hill and Swinley Forest. It is interesting to see design ideas reappearing and also "borrowed" ideas appearing on courses. Tom Birkert confirmed my view of the 6th on Sunningdale Old having a big hint of 2nd at PV and Tom's view the 7th having move than a passing resemblance to 11th at PV. There are also similarities with Old Elm but I'll let Dan discuss that at another time.

[JC Jones]

But, in my limited travels I haven't seen a hole where my immediate reaction was, "wow, that's # 12 at ANGC"

Perhaps because you didn't play the hole in all possible wind conditions?

[Keith Phillips]

I have been told that the 2nd at the Edinburgh Course at Wentworth was modeled after 12...description from website doesn't mention that but does highlight similar challenges  "A short hole which appears quite easy but in fact demands a lot of respect. Club selection and feel for the shot is very important. The shallow plateau?d green is protected front and back by small bunkers.An underhit tee shot will almost certainly finish in the winding burn. Aim for the more receptive lower left tier even when the pin is positioned on the right.

[Morgan Clawson]

My guess is that IBF meant a par 3 with a forced carry over water.

Given the age and notoriety of AN, one could argue that it has been copied quite a bit.

But the things that are not replicated as brilliantly are the angle from tee to green and the small depth of the green.

[V. Kmetz]

I think Baker-finch merely overspoke...#12 has been cited occasionally in architectural ode (Muirfield village comes to mind) but I think he was unconsciously referencing the "diagonal lines of play" and found in every ancient pocket of play.

If you think about #12 as its own "wallet-sized photographic negative", a reverse Redan of sorts, you can see properties it holds that no one architect can claim authorship of.

A: The Redan target is diagonally aligned to receive a right handed draw
B:  the 12th is aligned for a right-handed fade.

A.  The Redan and most of it's famous copies play level or slightly uphill
B.   the 12th is definitely downhill.

A.  The Redan chief carry threat is an enormous sunken buker, offering blind recovery
B.   The 12th chief carry threat is water and penalty drop, the front bunker is nearly a relief

A.  the Redan allows often dictates an element of judging bounce at the closest green entrance and banking contour which runs away
B.  the 12th demands an aerial judgement to one of three distinct green sections that all bank back towards the tee

They are both a variation of the property of diagonal lines of play, which occur on half of the golf holes designed since antiquity.

It feels universal because it's re-occuring and so IBF overspoke the most generalized truth imo

cheers

vk

[John Moore II]

You know, I thought of something today. Perhaps the 'copies' of the hole aren't necessarily par 3's. They could be greens on par 4's and 5's. I noticed as I was leaving a course today (only hit balls on the range) I noticed that whichever hole I passed on the way out, either 9 or 18, had a green that looked a lot like the 12th at ANGC. Front right bunker, two bunkers behind the green, green angled left to right, playing over water (pond instead of creek) and the shot into the green (from the best lie) is from about 150 yards. While perhaps not the intent, that green site and shot to be played certainly looked a lot like #12 at ANGC.

[Brian Phillips]

There's also a similar hole at Pitreavie, another MacKenzie in Fife.

I agree Mark.  There are a couple of holes at Pitreavie that are similar to holes at Augusta.

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