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Mike Cirba

Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« on: April 03, 2010, 10:35:20 AM »
...would you say this picture was taken from?



Joe Bausch

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Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 10:46:19 AM »
I saw that last night too.   ;)

Methinks No 3 tee.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 11:47:23 AM »
Joe,

Methinks you might be right.  And...Thanks for the update on CA.   (perfect...everytime I think the book is fini you go and find more stuff!   :P ;D)

Of course, what does that mean for restoring the 18th green?   Do we have to remove the right side bunker?  ;)

Matt_Davenport

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 10:24:03 PM »
Do elaborate on your last response, Mike. What of the right bunker on 18?

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 10:48:16 PM »
Do elaborate on your last response, Mike. What of the right bunker on 18?

Well, Matt....if you scroll over to the far right side it looks like someone is putting on #18 green which looks to be a bit different in configuration and the right side bunker...doesn't yet exist.

This pic is from spring 1918, one of the very earliest we have of the course.

I'm going there tomorrow with Mr. Bausch.   I'll see if I can't get a photo from this exact angle for comparison 92 years later. 

Sean_Tully

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Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 12:16:54 AM »
Guys

I can only venture a guess as I know only a little history of the course from your threads that the photo was taken very near the clubhouse. It always seems that a lot of the early photos were taken near to the clubhouse and parking lot. They did not get out onto the course much. Look forward to seeing what you turn up.

Tully

Kyle Harris

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 05:29:54 AM »
I don't think any more than 5-10% of the 18th green is even in that photo.

The 3rd tee is not adjacent to the 18th green, it's more adjacent to the turning point of the dogleg and then to the front portion of the green as you go back. Judging by the aerial the right bunkers on 18 would be almost directly behind the 3rd tee - and therefore out of the picture. It is obvious by the stitch mark that this is two photos stitched together though - so mind the panoramic perspective skew.

If anything the photo shows that those pine trees to the right of same tee should go, and that left-handed clubs existed in 1918!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2010, 06:33:41 AM »
3rd tee.

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2010, 07:06:15 AM »
En route...will take some comparative pics today.

Original tees were dirt, and tough to tell if 3rd tee is elevated slightly like today's.  If so, the angle may block right greenside bunker on 18.

Kyle Harris

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2010, 11:26:47 AM »
En route...will take some comparative pics today.

Original tees were dirt, and tough to tell if 3rd tee is elevated slightly like today's.  If so, the angle may block right greenside bunker on 18.

That's what I'm thinking - or it's just not in the photo!

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 08:46:36 AM »
Joe,

How did your multi-frame photo of this area turn out?   I think I might be able to paste a few snaps together tonight, but your camera is definitely more full-featured than mine.   

In either case, tonight I'll post a few, including one from a possible new par-five 18th tee, which we discussed a few weeks back.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 09:02:56 AM »
Joe,

How did your multi-frame photo of this area turn out?   I think I might be able to paste a few snaps together tonight, but your camera is definitely more full-featured than mine.   

In either case, tonight I'll post a few, including one from a possible new par-five 18th tee, which we discussed a few weeks back.

The multi-frame photo did not come out well on the first pass, unfortunately.  But I might try to look at it again later today.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 04:41:14 PM »
Joe,

How did your multi-frame photo of this area turn out?   I think I might be able to paste a few snaps together tonight, but your camera is definitely more full-featured than mine.   

In either case, tonight I'll post a few, including one from a possible new par-five 18th tee, which we discussed a few weeks back.

Ok, I got the software to cooperate!

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 08:03:36 PM »
Joe,

Nice pic(s).   Let me add a couple.

First, here's just a nice spring pic of the 5th hole.   The fairway-level greensites, the rairoad running behind, the proximity of the creek to the green just says early Philadelphia golf to me.





Next, here's a look up the hill of the original 6th hole tee shot.   While not quite as daunting as it appears today (the top of the hill has an elevated tee that if elminiated would probably reduce the intimidating look at least a bit), the hole required an 85 foot climb to reach the fairway of the 400 yard par four.





Speaking of elevated tee shots, a few weeks ago a few of us were speculating here (based on the old article Joe recently found that stated the architects had hoped for a more architecturally interesting final hole) about where that hole might have been given today's greensite.

Well, I found that if I went almost due east from today's 11th greensite (the former 17th) and switchbacked around, I could get down to the bottom of a hill quite easily where there is about 60 yards of flattish terrain just short of a creek, from where a final hole could be created anywhere from 530 to 600 yards.   Similar to the old 6th hole, it would require a tee shot climbing about 60 or so feet in elevation, and needing to carry about 170-210 to reach flattish terrain from the front, and obviously a longer carry from the back, more like 240 from the tips.  

It's a little rough in there and my legs have the scratches to prove it, but it would be possible to create something very much like the 18th at Yale, or even a bit like 18 at Merion from that position.

First, here's today's 17th hole.    The hypothetical 18th tee would be require the golfer to play this hole, then go back and to the left about 100 yards, playing the next tee shot up and over the hillside seen behind this green.





From the hypothethical tee, there is a creek running about 20-30 yards in front of where this pic is taken, which is the low point, before traversing back uphill.

I definitely don't see this as an unrealistic hole, and the more I study the terrain in this area the more convinced I become that the founding fathers envisioned something wild like this hole would certainly be.





« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:00:57 AM by Mike_C »

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 09:59:39 AM »
Bumping for a lurker....

I've added a green line on the following map to show the route I took from the old 17th green (today's 11th) down to the long, level area short of the creek.

The blue lines represent the hypothetical finishing hole, and the red line shows the angle from today's top 17th tee, had that been under consideration.   Frankly, I don't think it was, because that carry for anyone back in 1916 would have been impossible.

Finally, the pinkish/purple line shows the hole that they built after they were prevented from moving any trees.   It's very close to today's hole, except the original tee was located about 40-50 yards left and behind today's tee.



« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:13:09 AM by Mike_C »

Matt_Davenport

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 05:05:00 PM »
When is the appointment for the Tree Restoration Committee? I believe the state considers it a priority to remove invasive species. I'll start marking with a paint can. Anything with an "I" should be taken down by participating committee members? I hear that Mike is offering Free gas and chain oil ;D

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 11:27:13 PM »
Mike,

I played around with Google Earth and it looks like you could put a tee on the 11th green side of the valley (just behind and to the left of the green) and drive across the valley and reach the high ground of the other side (just behind the modern day range) with a 225+ carry.  The par 5 hole would measure 640 yards, with the drive roughly level (instead of uphill) and the second would be severely downhill with a great view of the city skyline.

The challenge would be getting to the 18th tee from the 17th.  Its only 180 yards but it would be steeply uphill (much like the walk to today's 18th).  You could eliminate the 17th all together (and restore the original 14th) but that would require Mr. Ward to select another hole for his top 18 public holes in New Jersey, I mean Philadelphia.   ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Where On The Original Cobb's Creek...
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 11:40:43 AM »
Geoff,

As I mentioned on the phone, the only problem with your suggestion is that it would have been historically impossible for the Founding Fathers to have envisioned the hole configuration you suggested as they didn't have the land left of today's 18th hole to work with at the time.   

If you think about the fact that the only passageway through that joins those two sections of the golf course, is the narrow width of the 4th and 5th holes, I think they'd have to be considering something more like what I drew as they had no choice but to go back over the hill on the way to the house at the end of the round.