With Ray Floyd gone, who is next?

[Sean_A]

Jack made a great run at the Masters in his late 50s and I think its a shame a guy like Watson thinks he can't win today because of the course set up and recent changes.  Didn't Player make the cut at something like 65?  To me, when Watson complains this is a problem with the course and not Watson.  Sure, Watson, like Nicklaus and Player, is an improbable competitor on the very last edge of his competitive career, but when we are talking about the best of all time anything can and should be allowed to happen.  There is also the reason the Masters was founded in the first place.  I personally feel that slipping away and with it, my interest in the Masters.  

Ciao  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Joel

Is P Floyd any relation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Py5aPLG348&feature=related

Melvyn

[JESII]

Jack made a great run at the Masters in his late 50s and I think its a shame a guy like Watson thinks he can't win today because of the course set up and recent changes.  Didn't Player make the cut at something like 65?  To me, when Watson complains this is a problem with the course and not Watson.  Sure, Watson, like Nicklaus and Player, is an improbable competitor on the very last edge of his competitive career, but when we are talking about the best of all time anything can and should be allowed to happen.  There is also the reason the Masters was founded in the first place.  I personally feel that slipping away and with it, my interest in the Masters.  

Ciao  

Sean,

Why was the Masters founded in the first place?

[Brent Hutto]

If the Masters isn't a reasonable walk in the park for, say, a 70-year-old Tom Watson will you still consider that an indictment of the course?

At some point any given course under any given setup will cease to provide an enjoyable or competitive round of golf for any player as he ages. The fact that Augusta National appears to have reached that point for Tom Watson at a couple years younger age than did Turnberry is not necessarily the same as saying that it's the lesser course.

[Niall C]

I think Augusta National and the game of golf have given each of these guys more than they could ever give back and any attempt at publicly rebuking the club is unfortunate.

Tom Watson went to the British Open thinking he could win, he goes to Augusta thinking he can't. If an older guy makes the kind of putts he did last year at Turnberry, he can get in the hunt.

Jim

I've just read the Watson interview in this months UK edition of Golf World. The point he was making about Augusta was that the tees were so far back he was hitting the up slope on some of the fairways with his drives and therefore hardly getting any run. Woods/michelson on the other hand bombed their drives onto the plateau, got lots of run and as a consequence they were hitting mid to short irons for their approaches while Watson is hitting a long iron to a green which isn't designed for it.

At Turnberry, where like most links there is a degree in flexibility in nearly all the holes (perhaps barring the 16th) where you can get a wood on as readily as a short iron provided you hit it straight, thats the difference.

Niall

[Brent Hutto]

I've just read the Watson interview in this months UK edition of Golf World. The point he was making about Augusta was that the tees were so far back he was hitting the up slope on some of the fairways with his drives and therefore hardly getting any run. Woods/michelson on the other hand bombed their drives onto the plateau, got lots of run and as a consequence they were hitting mid to short irons for their approaches while Watson is hitting a long iron to a green which isn't designed for it.

Gee, that describes me relative to whomever I'm paired up with at my home course (Ellis Maples, 1960) as well as virtually every Donald Ross course I've ever played. There's a ridge across practically every fairway and from the white tees it is generally positioned exactly on the demarcation point between my driver distance and that of the guys who are 15-20 yards longer than me. It makes for a frustrating day off the tee, at times.

[Kyle Harris]

If Tom Watson can almost win an Open, but not compete at Augusta, the problem isn't Watson, it is the course.

This is awfully specious reasoning.

Catch fire for a few days and the golf world should bow to you?

[Mike Hendren]

Like most of us on here, I'm betting Raymond Floyd sits around a men's grill somewhere sipping scotch while demonizing Obama and liberals and their politics of entitlement, yet suggests that Augusta National Golf Clubs owes him something at the age of 67.  Entitlement is a term we use for everybody else.  

With apologies to the old line about caddies, the old guys just need to show up and shut up even if they can't keep up.  

Some of us embarass ourselves every time we step onto the tee box.   BFD.  I'm tired of all this crap about the spirit of the Masters.  How about the spirit of the Raymond Floyds of the world.  It's an invitational.  You either gracefully accept or decline the invitation without griping about the host's decor, guest list or menu. Ideally with a nice letter.  

Bogey

[George Pazin]

Like most of us on here, I'm betting Raymond Floyd sits around a men's grill somewhere sipping scotch while demonizing Obama and liberals and their politics of entitlement, yet suggests that Augusta National Golf Clubs owes him something at the age of 67.  Entitlement is a term we use for everybody else.  

With apologies to the old line about caddies, the old guys just need to show up and shut up even if they can't keep up.  

Some of us embarass ourselves every time we step onto the tee box.   BFD.  I'm tired of all this crap about the spirit of the Masters.  How about the spirit of the Raymond Floyds of the world.  It's an invitational.  You either gracefully accept or decline the invitation without griping about the host's decor, guest list or menu. Ideally with a nice letter.  

Bogey

One of the more thought-provoking posts in a long time, nicely done.

[Eric Smith]

Like most of us on here, I'm betting Raymond Floyd sits around a men's grill somewhere sipping scotch while demonizing Obama and liberals and their politics of entitlement, yet suggests that Augusta National Golf Clubs owes him something at the age of 67.  Entitlement is a term we use for everybody else.  

With apologies to the old line about caddies, the old guys just need to show up and shut up even if they can't keep up.  

Some of us embarass ourselves every time we step onto the tee box.   BFD.  I'm tired of all this crap about the spirit of the Masters.  How about the spirit of the Raymond Floyds of the world.  It's an invitational.  You either gracefully accept or decline the invitation without griping about the host's decor, guest list or menu. Ideally with a nice letter.  

Bogey

One of the more thought-provoking posts in a long time, nicely done.

+1

Mike, this is great stuff, really great.  Happy Masters week!

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Some valid points above and I stand corrected on Hogan's age when he shot that great round.  I really don't care about the seniors themselves, or the club.  My point was this, when you attend the event it is a celebration of the game of golf, and it separated itself from other events due to the opportunity to see older players, whom you have read and heard about, in person playing.  It added to the experience.  Maybe now with the seniors tour, we see enough of them, but 25 years ago, it was the only opportunity to see them.  Times change, but I would like to think that the reason The Masters succeeds is its reluctance to commercialize and throw out
appreciation for the past.
 

[Sean Leary]

Bogey,

Did Floyd say anything that would make you think that he feels entitled? Maybe I missed that. I thought he just said he didn't want to embarrass himself?

[Mike Hendren]

Sean, perhaps I incorrectly utilized him as a straw man for his generation of players.  I have more of a problem with those who latch on to his comments, or Zoeller's (that it's no fun anymore) to support the contention that "Hootie has ruined the golf course."   I do think such comments by the players are at best insulting to a gracious host and at worst a back-handed slap at Augusta's governance. But I might be reaching.

[Rick Shefchik]

1955 Leaderboard
Position    Player    Final    R1    R2    R3    R4    Strokes    Earnings
1    Cary Middlecoff    -9    72    65    72    70    279    $5,000
2    Ben Hogan    -2    73    68    72    73    286    $3,125
3    Sam Snead    -1    72    71    74    70    287    $2,125
4    Julius Boros    +1    71    75    72    71    289    -
4    Mike Souchak    +1    71    74    72    72    289    -
4    Bob Rosberg    +1    72    72    72    73    289    -
7    E. Harvie Ward Jr.    +2    77    69    75    69    290    -
8    Lloyd Mangrum    +3    74    73    72    72    291    -
9    Stan Leonard    +4    77    73    68    74    292    -
10    Dick Mayer    +5    78    72    72    71    293    -
10    Byron Nelson    +5    72    75    74    72    293    $695
10    Arnold Palmer    +5    76    76    72    69    293    $695
13    Skee Riegel    +6    73    73    73    75    294    -
13    Jack Burke, Jr    +6    67    76    71    80    294    $593
15    Jay Hebert    +7    75    74    74    72    295    -
15    Frank Stranahan    +7    77    76    71    71    295    -
15    Walter Burkemo    +7    73    73    72    77    295    -
18    Johnny Palmer    +9    77    73    72    75    297    -
18    Billy Maxwell    +9    77    72    77    71    297    -
18    Joe Conrad    +9    77    71    74    75    297    -
18    Peter Thomson    +9    74    73    74    76    297    -
22    Tommy Bolt    +10    76    70    77    75    298    -
22    Gene Littler    +10    75    72    76    75    298    -
24    Ed Furgol    +11    74    72    78    75    299    -
24    Pete Cooper    +11    73    73    78    75    299    -
24    Hillman Robbins    +11    77    76    74    72    299    -
27    Max Evans    +14    76    75    75    76    302    -
28    Claude Harmon    +15    77    75    78    73    303    -
28    William L Goodloe Jr.    +15    74    73    81    75    303    -
30    Don Cherry    +16    79    75    78    72    304    -
30    Marvin Ward    +16    77    73    77    77    304    -
32    Charles R. Coe    +17    74    77    76    78    305    -
32    Chick Harbert    +17    76    80    73    76    305    -
32    Al Mengert    +17    79    71    78    77    305    -
32    Pat Fletcher    +17    76    75    77    77    305    -
36    Bruce Cudd    +18    75    74    79    78    306    -
36    William C. Campbell    +18    77    73    80    76    306    -
36    Denny Shute    +18    78    71    77    80    306    -
36    Billy Burke    +18    75    78    77    76    306    -
36    Shelly Mayfield    +18    77    73    80    76    306    -
41    Bob Toski    +19    78    71    79    79    307    -
41    Henry Picard    +19    78    79    75    75    307    $250
43    James G Jackson    +20    79    75    77    77    308    -
43    Marty Furgol    +20    79    74    79    76    308    -
43    Earl Stewart Jr.    +20    78    80    72    78    308    -
43    Rudy Horvath    +20    79    77    76    76    308    -
43    Leland Gibson    +20    81    75    75    77    308    -
48    Jim Turnesa    +21    77    75    79    78    309    -
49    William J Patton    +22    79    76    77    78    310    -
49    John Weitzel    +22    78    80    78    74    310    -
49    Lew Worsham    +22    80    75    79    76    310    -
49    Johnny Revolta    +22    75    78    79    78    310    -
53    Ed Oliver    +23    77    76    81    77    311    -
53    Victor Ghezzi    +23    78    79    77    77    311    -
53    Richard D. Chapman    +23    74    79    73    85    311    -
56    Herman Keiser    +24    82    79    75    76    312    $250
56    Jerry Barber    +24    75    77    77    83    312    -
58    Rex Baxter Jr.    +25    74    76    80    83    313    -
59    Ted Lenczyk    +27    77    80    77    81    315    -
59    Horton Smith    +27    81    81    79    74    315    -
61    Sam Parks Jr.    +28    80    80    78    78    316    -
62    Craig Wood    +29    81    81    79    76    317    -
63    Al Besselink    +30    80    75    80    83    318    -
63    Dale Morey    +30    82    77    81    78    318    -
65    Lawson Little, Jr.    +31    81    77    77    84    319    -
66    Bo Winiger    +32    81    74    81    84    320    -
67    Edward Meitster Jr.    +36    86    87    74    77    324    -
68    Davis Love Jr.    +39    82    85    83    77    327    -

[JESII]

Rick,

I think the year in question was 1967...when Hogan was 55 years old.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jim,

I just picked a year from the past at random to demonstrate that not much has changed. The scoring spread for those who make the cut is often about 40-50 shots from winner to last place. I'm guessing Horton Smith and Craig Wood were a little embarrassed by the course in 1955. So what?

[JESII]

swing and a miss...sorry.

[Chuck Brown]

Actually, Lynn, I didn't mean to simply "correct" you, because I share much of your fondness for those traditions that make the Masters unique.

Quite arguably, in the current era, there is a much, much better case for older champions playng, than ever before.  At 50 or 51, Fred Couples, with his competitive game kept viable on the Champions tour, is a much better competitor than was a 50 year-old Jack Nicklaus or Arnold Palmer.  Why not, in fact, offer Masters invitations to the US Senior Open Champion and the US Senior Am Champion?  Those titleholders are "Masters" in my book.

All I would have to say, with respect to Raymond Floyd, is that at age 67, he has probably made the right decision, to avoid the fate of Billy Casper.  One thing I'd have liked would have been for Raymond's final round to have been better-announced so that the fans could show Raymond the appreciation he deserves.

[jim_lewis]

Regarding my earlier post about the difference between today's top amateurs and those of an earlier time....I count at least 9 amateurs among those listed in the 1955 field. I'm sure I missed some whose name I don't recognize.  I think all were several years beyond college, and most never turned pro. Those were career amateurs.
I count the following: Ward Stranahan, Goodloe, Coe, Campbell, Patton, Chapman, Morey, and Little. Can anyone name some more?

[Chuck Brown]

Regarding my earlier post about the difference between today's top amateurs and those of an earlier time....I count at least 9 amateurs among those listed in the 1955 field. I'm sure I missed some whose name I don't recognize.  I think all were several years beyond college, and most never turned pro. Those were career amateurs.
I count the following: Ward Stranahan, Goodloe, Coe, Campbell, Patton, Chapman, Morey, and Little. Can anyone name some more?

I know that there was a time when the Walker Cup teams all got invitations.  Not sure of the years.

[jeffwarne]

I find this to be a shame.  Someone said the older players have always had trouble with the length of the course.  Didn't Hogan shoot a 30 on the back nine there in his sixties?

For me, The Masters is a celebration of golf.  If you ever attend, watching respectfully the champions from the past is a MAJOR part of the experience the first two days.  They are losing it for any number of reasons.  They need to be careful.  Televising Arnie and Jack teeing off on number one is good, but for the folks there and past champions, there needs to be more participation than a dinner and par 3 experience.

Members tees for the older guys are a good idea.  Having the junior national champion might work.  Today's top amateurs are mostly pre pros, so it is dated to have Walker Cup players participate.

Of course we could control the length of the ball, shorten and widen the course.  But that is another discussion, right?

If Tom Watson can almost win an Open, but not compete at Augusta, the problem isn't Watson, it is the course.
Doug Ford use to shoot lousy scores and as I understand only appeared because he wanted the appearance fee, but there are other seniors who could contribute to the feel of the event.  I think it is a loss for all of us that Floyd is history.

Lynn - Your memory is playing tricks on you.  In 1967 (it is one of my earliest memories of watching championship golf; I would have been 11, and more focused on things like basketball, including, uh, the beginngs of the John Wooden dynasty at UCLA), Ben Hogan shot 66 to put him among the 3rd round leaders at the Masters.  It was a phenomenal round of ball-striking, in which Hogan didn't even have to make a lot of putts to do it.  (Hogan shot 77 on Sunday to finish T-10.)  It was Hogan's last Masters.

But Hogan was 55 at the time.  Not in his sixties.  It was a terrific acheivement, almost surreal, given that there was no Champions tour for older pros to keep up a competitive edge.  Nowadays, we'd likely be somewhat less amazed if a 55 year-old Fred Couples or Ben Crenshaw or Craig Stadler did the same.

Ray Floyd is 67.  Hogan had given up all competitive golf long before he was 67.  Arnold Palmer turned 55 way back in 1985.  A great player, and former Masters champion shooting a couple of great rounds doesn't quite amaze us anymore.  (Gene Sarazen did play at the Masters into his 70's; our generation probably remembers that, and can't picture a time when the past greats of Masters history simply couldn't play anymore.)

Chuck,
Thank You for clarifying that.

The point was,one of the greatest players in history, did something that really stood out, shot a 66! at age 55.
That could still happen today.
the idea that Ray Floyd should have a chance to do that at 67 is well just unrealistic.

The Masters  IS a celebration of golf, but 67 year olds weren't ever meant to contend, and historically haven't.
Arnold Palmer won his last Masters 46 years ago!!!

As far as links golf allowing Watson to compete at 59, I'd say that's simply because the firm fast nature of the Open courses, combined with hot balls and drivers takes the driver out of the hands of longer hitters, thus allowing a short straight driver having a hot driver week to play from the same spots as a longer hitter forced into hybrids/irons-thus allowing an older player to compete.
I'd say that was less possible 20 years ago, but Watson is pure and excels at links golf.

The Masters plays no longer than it did in the 1960's/70's (except for #7)

[Kenny Baer]

In 98 Nicklaus finished T6 at the age of 58; he missed a 6-8ft putt on 9 that would have put him within one shot of the lead, he actually beat Tiger who finished 8th that year. 

If I remember correctly that was the last year without any rough and the course was still short enough for the older player to contend if they played well, I don't see anything wrong with that.  I think there is a misconception that if the course was shortened and the rough (first cut) eliminated that the scores would be to low, a -20 could win.  I don't see that happening.  ANGC is still mainly a position golf course, now it is just to long for the shorter hitter to get into proper position.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim L:

You're missing the likes of Bill Hyndman and Dick Siderowf -- two very active and talented amateurs.

[jeffwarne]

In 98 Nicklaus finished T6 at the age of 58; he missed a 6-8ft putt on 9 that would have put him within one shot of the lead, he actually beat Tiger who finished 8th that year. 

If I remember correctly that was the last year without any rough and the course was still short enough for the older player to contend if they played well, I don't see anything wrong with that.  I think there is a misconception that if the course was shortened and the rough (first cut) eliminated that the scores would be to low, a -20 could win.  I don't see that happening.  ANGC is still mainly a position golf course, now it is just to long for the shorter hitter to get into proper position.

Jack Nicklaus is the greatest player in history. (and was Tiger long in his youth)
Contending at 58 makes sense-I expect Tiger to do the same.
Ray Floyd struggling(or not) at 67 is ,well, his own choice.

Can we stop with the shorter hitter nonsense?
Immelman's no bomber,Weir,Johnson?

Years ago Augusta was considered a long hitters' course...

[Mike Hendren]

Add Hillman Robbins of Memphis to the 1955 amateur group.  He was the NCAA individual champion in 1954 while at Memphis State and would likely have been only 22 or 23 years old.  I believe Mason Rudolph was a teammate at Memphis State and on the Walker Cup team around the same time.   Robbins won the U. S. Amateur in 1957 at The Country Club at the age of 25.   I played against his son "Putter" in  high school.

Mike