I must put buggy paths in

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have tried to resist it for a long time but everybody pretty much wants them so they can still get round the course in wet conditions. I know the position of many on here but with an ever aging membership and desire even of the just over 40s THEY WANT TO TAKE A BUGGY or
THEY MAY NOT PLAY and give up
DOWNGRADE THEIR MEMBERSHIP and play less
JOIN A LOCAL COURSE that does provide the facility that they want

In this day age Golf courses are pretty marginal business's, none of the walkers (still 70%) seem to raise any objection to having buggies anyway ------ So why not

[Thomas McQuillan]

As long as there hidden from view and dont cause an eyesore, why not. Have them set a good bit off the fairways so that the additional walking to the ball might discourage their use

[Don_Mahaffey]

Buggy path sounds better than cart path so at least you've got that going for you.

IMO, courses are better off in most cases with less path than more, but if you have to have them...

1. Make 'em big enough for carts and maint. equip. to use them or you'll just have a concrete strip lined by a worn out muddy areas on each side.
2. Curb 'em by tees and greens (rounded curbs) or...see above
3. identify pinch points and give room for two carts or...see #1
4. Water still has to sheet over, or be piped under, the paths. Build trails not dams.
4. Cart paths are a pain...cart paths done on the cheap are worse.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

"So why not?"?  That's a fine question if you are unsure about the answer, but not if you know it deep in your heart.

Sitting through the World Forum on Golf Architecture in St. Andrews a couple of weekends ago, I came to the conclusion that these groups could never be leaders, because they will never take a tough stand.  The officers all seem to be the guys with 20-30 years of experience ... the guys who have long ago sold out their idealism and are just worried about staying in business.

We talked about environmental issues and equipment issues that would be fairly easy to resolve, IF the group as a whole would take a stand for something.  But they don't.  They reason they have to build 7200-yard courses even though they know it's the wrong thing to do, because if they don't, somebody else will.  They never even think about the possibility of making a statement that it's the wrong thing to do, and then backing it up by calling others out on doing something that is environmentally wrong, economically wrong, or just wrong for society or for golf as a whole.

Do you really need to know if it's the right thing, to help make electric golf buggies as ubiquitous in the UK as they are in the USA? Or are you just looking for someone to let you off the hook?  I am sure you are correct, that your competitor will go ahead and do it, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I'm sure this will come off as a lecture or even a sermon, and I apologize for that.  I'm not trying to tell you what is the right thing to do.  But I think you already know that, and I'm just trying to back you up.

[Bill Brightly]

In my first year as grounds chair I was under tremendous pressure to install a bunch of new cart paths after losing 43 days the prior season. (Course closure or no cart days.) The seniors were on the warpath. Our supeintendent convinced the board to spend the money on drainage, and the results were amazing. So I have to ask if you have explored more drainage before you start laying blacktop.

[Sean_A]

In my first year as grounds chair I was under tremendous pressure to install a bunch of new cart paths after losing 43 days the prior season. (Course closure or no cart days.) The seniors were on the warpath. Our supeintendent convinced the board to spend the money on drainage, and the results were amazing. So I have to ask if you have explored more drainage before you start laying blacktop.

Cha ching.  This sounds familiar and I know most clubs in the UK haven't come close to exploring their drainage issues.

Ciao 

[Garland Bayley]

If you're looking for a walker that objects to buggies and buggy paths, then you have found him. I object!

[John Moore II]

How wet is it that they can't walk? I walked a course yesterday that was a real mud hole (certainly one of the 5 worst courses I've ever played, BTW) and I was fine.

In reality, it comes down to them simply wanting carts because they're getting a little lazy like a lot of folks do. Could you afford to lose 30% of your business? Probably not. So, then you're left with putting in the paths. Though, depending on the course, you could look at building the paths like they have them at the Dye course at PGA Village in Florida. Most of the paths are rocky/shelly sand that is compacted. Perhaps you could do that and they would look more like waste areas and not be as intrusive?

[Michael Rossi]

The issue doesn't seem to be because of wet conditions, it seems to be a small portion of the membership trying to change the club for their personal desire and not the majority of the membership.

I have tried to resist it for a long time but everybody pretty much wants them so they can still get round the course in wet conditions. I know the position of many on here but with an ever aging membership and desire even of the just over 40s THEY WANT TO TAKE A BUGGY or
THEY MAY NOT PLAY and give up  Sounds like an idle threat
DOWNGRADE THEIR MEMBERSHIP and play less tell them how much their membership is going to increase with the cost of the paths
JOIN A LOCAL COURSE that does provide the facility that they want Perhaps however you may gain members that welcome no buggies, the "enviro-green" approach and golf as it is meant to be played (that's for Melvyn)

In this day age Golf courses are pretty marginal business's, none of the walkers (still 70%) seem to raise any objection to having buggies anyway  the walkers may revolt if their dues increase because of the cart path costs and that is 70% of the business[/color]

The cost will not end with the installation, more carts, more sodding each year around the paths, more maintenance each and every day to both the paths and carts. You speak of the difficult economic climate, the addition may not be the right path.

[Matthew Runde]

Have them set a good bit off the fairways so that the additional walking to the ball might discourage their use.

You're my hero.

You could also paint the carts pink and charge a lot for them.

[Bill_McBride]

What do you estimate the cost of the paths?  What about annual maintenance?  That can be a significant line item for trimming back and repairing.  What about the cost of purchase or lease and repair of the buggies?  If members really won't use the buggies in the volume you anticipate, this could all be a financial strain.

Maybe a confidential survey and a subsequent cost / benefit analysis.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Here is the problem and its a problem that I am sure you have all encountered in your own business's. The same question comes up weekly.... knock on the door
Member " I was wondering when I can take a cart out,"
Me .... WELL ITS HARD TO SAY WITH THE WEATHER, ITS STILL ONY MARCH, BUT APRILISH IS NORMALLY THE TIME
MEMBER " Thing is I have not played since November"
me ... I UNDERSTAND ITS A PROBLEM, BUT IT IS JUST TOO WET, THE COURSE IS BARELY OPEN,
MEMBER "I love this course but I think I might go back to High Park, they have paths there"

If this was an isolated problem I'd take it on the chin but its a growing problem and just one person that wants to ride can mean you losing the whole group to the club that offers the winter carts.

My rationale is I am forced to do it, but I think others will get forced in the UK as time marches on this problem is a grower. I dont see a levy to walkers, the carts must pay for it.

In the UK we continue to play in some very wet conditions, but unless you are on sand or chalk, and most are on clay draining a whole course enough to play with carts is not an option.

Bill we aready have the buggies they are parked up in the winter so are in effect a non- earner. If you lease buggies whist you can do a six month or seven month deal as apposed the whole year, you pretty much rent for six but its double bubble.

They are idle threats, they are genuine plea's and the "i aint playing if i cant take a buggy" is very real. The real sadness is that most clubs in the UK are 90% walkers, but the have an average age of say 55. The just over 40s brigade are much more I wanna ride and thats where I see the not so rosey future in 10-15 years time.

The PLUS side.. it might generate some work for archies. :O)

Garland - I take your point but its a minority one.

Tom - We call those guys the Pickleheads, they are off a production line and usually have no real idea of the real world.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian,

Does your course have long green to tee walks? What length is it?

[Rob Rigg]

Adrian,

Do the walking members truly understand how the construction of cart paths will change the look, play and culture at the course?

Fact - Cart paths look like scars on the landscape

Fact - Cart paths change the playing characteristics of courses unless they are set back WELL away from fairways and driving lines off the tee

Fact - Cart paths breed a lazy culture at clubs and will attract more cart golfers in the future

If you have a great club, why change it to please 10% of the members who want a cart?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

Does your course have long green to tee walks? What length is it?

Scott - From the backs I think its the longest course in the UK, but from the winter tees  its only about 6000 yards. There are 4 holes where the walk might be 100 yards.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

Do the walking members truly understand how the construction of cart paths will change the look, play and culture at the course?

Fact - Cart paths look like scars on the landscape

Fact - Cart paths change the playing characteristics of courses unless they are set back WELL away from fairways and driving lines off the tee

Fact - Cart paths breed a lazy culture at clubs and will attract more cart golfers in the future

If you have a great club, why change it to please 10% of the members who want a cart?

Rob - I think the fact is more that hardly anyone sees a cart path as a scar, they dont change the playing characteristics and people dont care if others have carts. This is a big problem for people on this site ( and I am one of them too) but its not a universal popular opinion. We already have quite a lot of paths anyway (through the wetlands, around tees, high wear areas) but we like the carts to roam on the fairways in the summer, Its just when its wet I dont have a full link for the golfers to cart it all. I sorta need to fill the gaps.
Commercial golf not dream golf is different I cant afford to lose a 7% revenue stream when we are only making 9%.

[Brett_Morrissy]

I feel for you Adrian.

My club here is looking to concrete some existing paths (compacted crushed stone), on a course that has a natural and slightly wild feel right on the coast. They argue that, especially on the steep climbs up and around a couple of tees in particular, where erosion from rain is an issue for OH&S, that it is required. They are looking at approx 1000m of it. We have public green fee access that will reduce to private club only over the next 5-8 years. We also have a number of residents with carts.

My issue is that there is nothing of this type on the course at the moment. so currently, we have a purely natural, evolving environment in sand dunes, once concrete is added (immovable), it is there forever, they are saying we only need it in a couple of spots, but this sets a precendent for committees and boards in the future to continue to add to it.

I think it detracts from the course markedly and also from the beauty of the course. One point of which they are all sensitive to is the national ranking of the course.
I will post this Q on a new thread - how do course raters apply a concrete cart path to their calculations of the course rating - as this could be used by both Adrian and I to justify a more sympathetic outcome to the golf course.

Brett

[JNC Lyon]

Here is the problem and its a problem that I am sure you have all encountered in your own business's. The same question comes up weekly.... knock on the door
Member " I was wondering when I can take a cart out,"
Me .... WELL ITS HARD TO SAY WITH THE WEATHER, ITS STILL ONY MARCH, BUT APRILISH IS NORMALLY THE TIME
MEMBER " Thing is I have not played since November"
me ... I UNDERSTAND ITS A PROBLEM, BUT IT IS JUST TOO WET, THE COURSE IS BARELY OPEN,
MEMBER "I love this course but I think I might go back to High Park, they have paths there"

If this was an isolated problem I'd take it on the chin but its a growing problem and just one person that wants to ride can mean you losing the whole group to the club that offers the winter carts.

My rationale is I am forced to do it, but I think others will get forced in the UK as time marches on this problem is a grower. I dont see a levy to walkers, the carts must pay for it.

In the UK we continue to play in some very wet conditions, but unless you are on sand or chalk, and most are on clay draining a whole course enough to play with carts is not an option.

Bill we aready have the buggies they are parked up in the winter so are in effect a non- earner. If you lease buggies whist you can do a six month or seven month deal as apposed the whole year, you pretty much rent for six but its double bubble.

They are idle threats, they are genuine plea's and the "i aint playing if i cant take a buggy" is very real. The real sadness is that most clubs in the UK are 90% walkers, but the have an average age of say 55. The just over 40s brigade are much more I wanna ride and thats where I see the not so rosey future in 10-15 years time.

The PLUS side.. it might generate some work for archies. :O)

Garland - I take your point but its a minority one.

Tom - We call those guys the Pickleheads, they are off a production line and usually have no real idea of the real world.

This may sound unrealistic, but do you really want these people playing at your club?  Anyone who will only play golf in a cart is not serious about their golf, and I do not think I would want to be a member at a club where people are not serious golfers.  Unless they physically have a difficult time walking a course, someone who refuses to play anything but cart golf has no respect for the traditions of the game.  They probably do not understand the etiquette of the game either.

I love how he says "I haven't played since November" like it is his fault.  Unless he is physically incapable of walking the golf course, this is no fault but his own.  It is an OUTDOOR SPORT for goodness sake.  Why doesn't he take up bowling or watching TV if he doesn't like get physical exercise on a course that might be a bit muddy?

I get flak from my friends who think golf is not a sport.  Their main reasoning?  YOU CAN PLAY IT IN A CART.  Carts are an embarrassment to the game, and no accommodations should be made for them.  Again, the only exception is if someone is physically unable to walk.

I have met many people who are cart golfers, but I have only met a few who have so little love for the game that they will only play it in a cart.  For every person like this, there are probably more who put a premium on walking golf.

I would say, I OBJECT to tee-to-green cartparths.  Let the cart-only guys go.  If you establish your club as one that promotes walking, you will find a niche and not worry about losing golfers.

[Scott Warren]

Perhaps it could be the case re: your last paragraph, John, but I guess the hard spot for Adrian is staying in business in these shit times while he does that, as well as the possible difficulty of establishing as a walker's haven a 7000yd course with a number of 100yd green-to-tee walks.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

How many carts does teh club have now?

I get the impression you are gearing up for 10 years time.  I know the Players is a new style club with some members, but a very much pay and play feel to it and you are thinking this style will become much more popular in the coming years as well.  Perhaps you are right and that carts at a course like this could make the difference.  However, if your concept of the future of golf doesn't pan out, you are saddled with a cart culture which may not so intriguing to many golfers; members, visitors and societies.  You could find yourself competing for a much smaller segment of the market.  Depending on how much you rely on cart revenue now, this could be a much more risky move than you think.  I get around quite a bit in England, and there are VERY few courses I see with a cart culture.  In fact, I can only think of one, The Warwickshire, and they don't have many carts, yet the paths are a problem which add to drainage problems.  If it were me, I would explore long term drainage issues first and foremost before spending money on anything else.  A dry course will bring in more business than any other single thing a club can do.  Sure, it costs a ton, but spread over time it is well worth it.

Ciao

[Ryan Farrow]

Adrian:

"So why not?"?  That's a fine question if you are unsure about the answer, but not if you know it deep in your heart.

Sitting through the World Forum on Golf Architecture in St. Andrews a couple of weekends ago, I came to the conclusion that these groups could never be leaders, because they will never take a tough stand.  The officers all seem to be the guys with 20-30 years of experience ... the guys who have long ago sold out their idealism and are just worried about staying in business.

We talked about environmental issues and equipment issues that would be fairly easy to resolve, IF the group as a whole would take a stand for something.  But they don't.  They reason they have to build 7200-yard courses even though they know it's the wrong thing to do, because if they don't, somebody else will.  They never even think about the possibility of making a statement that it's the wrong thing to do, and then backing it up by calling others out on doing something that is environmentally wrong, economically wrong, or just wrong for society or for golf as a whole.

Do you really need to know if it's the right thing, to help make electric golf buggies as ubiquitous in the UK as they are in the USA? Or are you just looking for someone to let you off the hook?  I am sure you are correct, that your competitor will go ahead and do it, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I'm sure this will come off as a lecture or even a sermon, and I apologize for that.  I'm not trying to tell you what is the right thing to do.  But I think you already know that, and I'm just trying to back you up.

Tom.... Then why do you build em?

We all know that not a single architect out there is going to turn down a project because their client wants cart paths.... The problem is when some people don't try do hide them, and when they have a great site, they don't try and take a stand against them. Or try to pursue other "natural" options. We have a project now on.... dare I say Pine-Valley-ish terrain, and our biggest worry right now is cart paths. We are going to have them, but we want to make sure people would rather walk instead, they aren't going to be visible, and they aren't going to be concrete (hopefully).

And when all is said and done, maint. vehicles need to get around, so some type of "buggy path" is inevitable.

[Gary Slatter]

Adrian,

Do the walking members truly understand how the construction of cart paths will change the look, play and culture at the course?

Fact - Cart paths look like scars on the landscape

Fact - Cart paths change the playing characteristics of courses unless they are set back WELL away from fairways and driving lines off the tee

Fact - Cart paths breed a lazy culture at clubs and will attract more cart golfers in the future

If you have a great club, why change it to please 10% of the members who want a cart?

Rob - I think the fact is more that hardly anyone sees a cart path as a scar, they dont change the playing characteristics and people dont care if others have carts. This is a big problem for people on this site ( and I am one of them too) but its not a universal popular opinion. We already have quite a lot of paths anyway (through the wetlands, around tees, high wear areas) but we like the carts to roam on the fairways in the summer, Its just when its wet I dont have a full link for the golfers to cart it all. I sorta need to fill the gaps.
Commercial golf not dream golf is different I cant afford to lose a 7% revenue stream when we are only making 9%.

Adrian, god answers, build the paths!

[David Whitmer]

If you establish your club as one that promotes walking, you will find a niche and not worry about losing golfers.

I was hired as the golf professional at a brand new private club back in 1997. It was sold to prospective members (and me) as a club that would have no cart paths, would go out of their way to promote walking, and would have absolutely no Monday golf outings.

By the second full year, it became painfully obvious that cart paths were needed. Too many members said they wanted to ride more, and too many members said they wouldn't bring out important guests if they couldn't ride. When the paths were put in, cart revenues went up more than 50%, guest fees quadrupled, and the club's golf operation became very profitable very quickly. Also, the club learned after a few years that Monday outings brought in serious money for the club, so they became allowed as well.

I didn't like the changes from a golf standpoint, but they were needed from an economic standpoint. Ideally they would never have been put in, but the reality is that club (and I think a large majority of clubs) simply can't survive monetarily without the extra revenue it brings in. Our club had to adapt to what the members wanted.

[JC Jones]

Adrian:

"So why not?"?  That's a fine question if you are unsure about the answer, but not if you know it deep in your heart.

Sitting through the World Forum on Golf Architecture in St. Andrews a couple of weekends ago, I came to the conclusion that these groups could never be leaders, because they will never take a tough stand.  The officers all seem to be the guys with 20-30 years of experience ... the guys who have long ago sold out their idealism and are just worried about staying in business.

We talked about environmental issues and equipment issues that would be fairly easy to resolve, IF the group as a whole would take a stand for something.  But they don't.  They reason they have to build 7200-yard courses even though they know it's the wrong thing to do, because if they don't, somebody else will.  They never even think about the possibility of making a statement that it's the wrong thing to do, and then backing it up by calling others out on doing something that is environmentally wrong, economically wrong, or just wrong for society or for golf as a whole.

If this is a sermon, then Amen. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom Doak,

I am with Ryan....how many courses have you built with cart paths?  I know you have built some, and wonder how you square that acceptance with the sermon above!  Now, I happen to believe they were absolutely necessary at a course like Stone Eagle with an aging membership and hilly terrain. I just wonder how many clubs and resorts are specifically targeted at younger golfers who don't want carts.  And if so, how do you keep that demographic the same....shoot a member or force him to quit when he hits 50?

KBM,

Why would you bother to say ASGCA will be licensing gca's?  It has never happened and it never will.

As to the quote at hand, its not that I disagree.  If there is a racket angle to cart paths, then it might be the number of ADA inspectors who are out to garner a name and fines and fees if an "accessible route" isn't present through the course.

Which brings up an interesting point.  TD says walking is the right thing "for society" but society (as interpreted by our Federal govt) has said that making recreational facilities available to those on cruthes and those in wheelchairs is the "right thing" which means cart paths in most cases.  Is walking a golf course an equal level right to ADA accessibility? No doubt it would help solve some obesity problems (including mine) but cart paths may be legislated into new golf courses for those who truly can't walk, and maybe Adrian can feel better about them looking at it that way.

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