News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country New
« on: April 06, 2010, 07:35:55 AM »
Just to the northeast of Charleston among live oaks and the savannah is the location of a Mike Strantz design which upon first glance must bring a smile to the golfer.  I say this because once one makes the turn onto the club property and sees a huge hill topped with a clubhouse rising from what is most assuredly Low Country, a smile is the only appropriate response.  Building the hill was without doubt an inspired decision for several reasons. First, the hill gives the course a focal point feature which most Low Country courses lack.  It is probably for this reason that the course could be more of the conventional type when compared to Tobacco Road yet the hill is incorporated into several of the holes.  Second, the hill introduces the vital element of wind to Bulls Bay, an element which when combined with perhaps the widest fairways I have encountered makes for interesting decision-making.  Third, a sense of anticipation as to how the incoming holes on both sides of the course will play hangs in the air. Fourth, any other shaping work doesn't look to stand out against the backdrop of an 80 foot hill.  Finally, the hill affords glorious views of the course and beyond to barrier islands and the Atlantic a few miles distant.

After only one play I found the course to be fairly difficult.  This was mainly due to some harsh hole locations which were still in place after the recent Hootie at Bulls Bay tournament which featured many of the southern powerhouses of college golf.  I also found the course played very long from the 6700 yard Skull tees.  There was often little roll due to the grass transitioning from winter dormancy to summer green.  In fact, I think we would have been better off at least playing the par 5s from the forward tees.  Covering ~2800 yards in five three-shotters is too much a recipe for sloggers golf.  Of course, not knowing where the good misses are is always a handicap on a Strantz design because the greens are sure to have a flavour of disaster about them.  It goes without saying that Bulls Bay is packed with strategic options and some deception, but in general, the course is far more sedate than its North Carolina neighbour, Tobacco Road.

The opening drive, like nearly every drive at Bulls Bay; wide open.  I spose the goal is to earn a line of approach just left of the live oak, but there is oodles of room left of this which leaves a tight approach over sand.


The approach.


The hole location seems innocent enough, but missing what seems safely right is no bargain if the golfer hopes to write a four on the card. 


The second is of a similar concept to Tobacco Road's 4th and 11th, arching doglegs - a leg from a large beast such as an Irish Wolfhound! The hole seems to go forever and for practical purposes, at 582 yards it does!  The par 3s are well conceived if lacking a bit of the fizz one expects of Strantz.  The use of lone Live Oaks seen in the right sand is a common theme throughout the design.
 

After a fairly lengthy cart ride to the 4th tee the question of why this course wasn't designed to be a comfortable walk did occur to me. Okay, there is a huge hill in the middle of the course, but even with this feature I believe the course could and should have been more walker friendly. The par 5, 4th features a fairly lengthy carry drive.  It wouldn't be a Strantz without at least one forced carry  The hole is reachable in two for some, but generally not without taking on the right side sand. 


This is one of the few holes that Strantz allows for a foozled shot.  This is the approach after two shots covered a measely 370 yards.


Like the 8th, #5 turns hard right and one can run out of room on the left. 


The approach.


The longish three-shot 6th is probably my favourite par 5 on the course.  The hole double doglegs around water/sand on the left and a built up mound further up on the right. 


A good layup leaves the golfer looking straight down the two-tier green, but much of the putting surface can't be seen.


I think this is the first of a handful of holes in which there is a backboard which the player can spin an approach off if he chooses.


Water seemed to be a theme Strantz wanted to concentrate on at Bulls Bay; the par 3 7th.


#8 is very disorientating from the tee - a layup is the smart play.  I did walk away curious as to why Strantz didn't try to make this a more drivable par 4.  It is certainly something the course could use a few of to counter-balance the very long par 5s.  The very attractive approach.


The 8th started the climb to the house and the 9th finishes the job!  Like at some Tobacco Road holes, there is more space to the driving zone than can be seen; in this case, down the right.


A look at the approach first from the left. What can't be seen is a spine cutting the green in two.


What goes up must come down.  The 10th is a long par 5 cascading down the hill.  The combination of height and immense features make it very difficult to know how far one's ball will go.  Fortunately, having played Tobacco Road many times, I didn't fall for any of the visual deceptions.  The line is straight at the sand on the far side of the fairway for a hitter of my length. 


More games from Strantz on #11.  The bunkers indicate a line to the right, but the water comes further left than it appears.  Furthermore, depending on how one rolls, if the pin is right, many would prefer to be on the left side of the fairway.  I wonder if Strantz was thinking of #s 11, 12 and 13 as an Amen Corner.


It is quite evident from the fairway that the green is a roller coaster ride!  Also note how Strantz uses the next hole as a distraction.


A closer look at the green.


Bulls Bay own version of Amen Corner continues on the 12th with a shortish par 3 over water.


The final hole in the Amen trilogy encounters water not once, but twice.  In truth, I don't like holes like this where the golfer has to bust a shot or two just to reach what is usually a fish hook dogleg.  It may be designed on purpose to frustrate, but it certainly isn't fun for the many (even from forward tees) who know they have no chance to reach in regulation and can easily lose a ball.  I wasn't thrilled with the par 5s to this point and the 13th left a bad taste in my mouth.


Although, once we reach the approach it is not without merit.


#14 reminds me of a links hole like no other at Bulls Bay.


We now crest the hill to play a similar tee shot to #10; straight downhill.  Below is the approach from well beyond the driving zone for most mere mortals.  There is also a tree to the right which one must work around for the approach yet avoid the other Live Oak to the left.  This is very clever use of trees in what seems like a wide open landscape. 


The 16th is bewildering from the tee.  It isn't clear where one should be aiming.  Nor is it clear that the best line of approach is near the water on the right.  Nor is it clear that this water is very much in play off the tee.


The par 3 penultimate hole features yet another backboard. 


A closer look at how the backboard can be used.


The home hole is another deceiver.  To shorten the hole one must carry the sand on the left.  I detest the big bush blocking the view of the green and think it serves to steer golfers away from being lured left.  Otherwise, this is a clever set-up for the tee shot.


With any length approach, the idea is to once again use the backboard.  Most shots flown into the hill will feed back to the middle/right part of the green.   


It is difficult not to like Bulls Bay.  As a total package its a grand day out.  However, the three-shot holes are not especially memorable nor is the difficult to walk aspect of the design desirable.  That said, there are plenty of memorable shots and the greens are generally of interest. It is evident that Bulls Bay is the cousin of Tobacco Road, but the two are distinct enough to be seen as totally different types of courses. Bulls Bay afforded the space for Strantz to properly test the concept of mega wide fairways and I think it works well.  Combine this with the incredible hand made hill which I believe is what makes the course work and I think Bulls Bay is deserving of the accolades it receives.  Most certainly if anybody gets the opportunity to play Bulls Bay they should not pass it up.  2010

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 02:03:33 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 09:59:00 AM »
Good job on the photo review, probably the most extensive I've seen on Bulls Bay.  For courses in the SE that I'd want to play, it's very near the top.
I still like Greywalls better.

Peter Zarlengo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 10:54:02 AM »
Sean,

I was out at Bull's Bay around this time last year, but only for a walk (drive, rather) around. I agree with much of what you said. Like you, I appreciated the fact that it was different. I think thats what fascinates me about Mike Strantz's work so much. So much of the golf in that area and part of the country can begin to look and play similar, and I tried not to seek out those places. Bull's Bay seems to buck convention in so many ways: scale, predictability, shapes, materials, and vegetation. But like you, I thought it fell short it a lot of areas as well, especially the boomerang and fish hook shaped par 5's and the fact that no matter how artfully you shape and vegetate it, an 80 foot hill in a cleared out swamp is still just going to look like a huge haul pile.

Bull's Bay was really unlike anything I'd ever seen having only seen golf in the Midwest, UK, and the pair of Raynor courses in Charleston at that point. I think there's a lot of fun to be had on that course. I really appreciate the photos and your take on the course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 05:43:05 PM »
Sean,

I was out at Bull's Bay around this time last year, but only for a walk (drive, rather) around. I agree with much of what you said. Like you, I appreciated the fact that it was different. I think thats what fascinates me about Mike Strantz's work so much. So much of the golf in that area and part of the country can begin to look and play similar, and I tried not to seek out those places. Bull's Bay seems to buck convention in so many ways: scale, predictability, shapes, materials, and vegetation. But like you, I thought it fell short it a lot of areas as well, especially the boomerang and fish hook shaped par 5's and the fact that no matter how artfully you shape and vegetate it, an 80 foot hill in a cleared out swamp is still just going to look like a huge haul pile.

Bull's Bay was really unlike anything I'd ever seen having only seen golf in the Midwest, UK, and the pair of Raynor courses in Charleston at that point. I think there's a lot of fun to be had on that course. I really appreciate the photos and your take on the course.

Peter

I must not have been clear in my original post.  I think building the hill was a bloody great idea.  My issues are more with the walkability of the course, the par 5s and that the course doesn't seem to hang together as well as I had hoped.  That said, there are loads of great shots out there and I would go back for a second look.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 06:33:17 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 07:30:54 PM »
Sean - Like most of Strantz' courses (with a possible exception of Caledonia) Bulls Bay takes more than one play before you start to "get it." I agree that the par 5's are difficult to extreme for the average golfer and that a mixed set of tees would be in order for most of us.

I also agree that the course could have been created more walker friendly... especially for a private club. Starting with a clean slate one would think that Strantz would have given the walker more consideration. It makes me wonder if Strantz didn't just consider US golf a riding game?

Finally, I agree that the par 3's at Bulls Bay, while adequate and challenging, do not stack up to the unique creativity one usually associates with a Strantz course. I've always felt that outstanding par 3's were a Strantz speciality. Maybe I'm spoiled by those he created before Bulls Bay.

In Bulls Bay Strantz created a member's course that is enjoyed and appreciated with repeated plays. Some of his public courses have over-the-top features that deliver a magnificent WOW factor, but might prove overbearing if one had to play them every week... some of the features at Tot Hill Farm come to mind.

I hope you get to visit Bulls Bay again during next year's holiday!  ;)
 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 06:42:08 AM »
Sean - Like most of Strantz' courses (with a possible exception of Caledonia) Bulls Bay takes more than one play before you start to "get it." I agree that the par 5's are difficult to extreme for the average golfer and that a mixed set of tees would be in order for most of us.

I also agree that the course could have been created more walker friendly... especially for a private club. Starting with a clean slate one would think that Strantz would have given the walker more consideration. It makes me wonder if Strantz didn't just consider US golf a riding game?

Finally, I agree that the par 3's at Bulls Bay, while adequate and challenging, do not stack up to the unique creativity one usually associates with a Strantz course. I've always felt that outstanding par 3's were a Strantz speciality. Maybe I'm spoiled by those he created before Bulls Bay.

In Bulls Bay Strantz created a member's course that is enjoyed and appreciated with repeated plays. Some of his public courses have over-the-top features that deliver a magnificent WOW factor, but might prove overbearing if one had to play them every week... some of the features at Tot Hill Farm come to mind.

I hope you get to visit Bulls Bay again during next year's holiday!  ;)
 

Whitty

You are right.  I wouldn't fancy playing TR every week.  Even though Bulls Bay has a huge built hill, it plays less outrageous than TR. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2016, 04:15:54 AM »
All the talk of The Road got me thinking about the other Strantz course I played...a totally different animal.  Thinking back on the course, one of the outstanding features is the use of trees on what is generally a wide golf course.  Sometimes the trees are more immediately/obviously in play and at other times the penny drops about the tree when its too late.  What do folks think about using trees this way rather than the more traditional use of rowed framing?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2016, 06:05:19 AM »
Sean - glad you brought this review back up. I love BB and rate it more highly and playable than TR. I could play BB daily while TR I think monthly or quarterly would do. I was able to play some ground game shots at BB which always pleases me.


The "strategic" trees at BB remind me somewhat of HarborTown. BB is certainly wider but not by much, and I think they add much to a hole and course...I was going to saying "sparingly used" but I don't mind several on each nine, as long as they provide an option before you get to them, and an option is possible once you get under/behind it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 07:13:42 AM »
Sean - glad you brought this review back up. I love BB and rate it more highly and playable than TR. I could play BB daily while TR I think monthly or quarterly would do. I was able to play some ground game shots at BB which always pleases me.


The "strategic" trees at BB remind me somewhat of HarborTown. BB is certainly wider but not by much,


Not by much??  I would estimate the fairways at Bulls Bay are at least twice as wide as Harbour Town, and the clearings even wider.  But I did love the use of trees as occasional obstacles, especially at the 1st and 15th holes -- the latter of which we diagrammed in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide.


I agree with your first paragraph, that Bulls Bay is a much more fun course for repeated play, which it was intended to be since it is a members' club.  I just wish more of Mike's work was designed that way.  It seemed to me that he built everything else to attract golfers rather than to retain them, and that unless you are long enough to reach those daring par-5 holes in two, you would learn to play conservative golf pretty fast -- at which point a lot of the thrill would be gone.  However, I've never played any of them more than twice.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2016, 12:42:37 PM »
First of all Tom is right.  I have been a member at BB for three years and it never gets old.  I think MPCC is similar in that you would want to play it every day (except you see Cypress Point down the road and want to be there every day).


A new green is being built on the third hole short and right of the old green.  Unfortunately the current third green is shaded by a beautiful live oak and it is nearly impossible to grow grass on 40 percent of the green.  The new green is shaped and I will post a picture when I get back to Charleston.  The club has started to trim and remove some pines that shade some tees but will not (and should not) mess with the beautiful live oaks.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 12:49:08 PM »
First of all Tom is right.  I have been a member at BB for three years and it never gets old.  I think MPCC is similar in that you would want to play it every day (except you see Cypress Point down the road and want to be there every day).


A new green is being built on the third hole short and right of the old green.  Unfortunately the current third green is shaded by a beautiful live oak and it is nearly impossible to grow grass on 40 percent of the green.  The new green is shaped and I will post a picture when I get back to Charleston.  The club has started to trim and remove some pines that shade some tees but will not (and should not) mess with the beautiful live oaks.


Paul,


Interesting comment about MPCC.
Tim Weiman

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2016, 01:26:53 PM »
Great pics, played it in March and I was a real treat. Played from 6700 and it was a handful. The worst part was watching the Duke Mens team play it from another zip code and rack up some impressive numbers.

Difficult course for the first round of the year but cannot wait to go back next year. Good mix of holes and nice putting surfaces.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2016, 04:28:47 PM »
Always one of my absolute favorites, and it's also a shrine to Mike Strantz's memory and legacy.  As idyllic a place as you could ever find...with absolutely fantastic par-5s too:)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2016, 04:30:35 PM »
Thanks for the excellent review, Sean (even if I am several years late to it). 


I am a fan of Mike Strantz's work in general, and of Bulls Bay in particular.  While this is toned-down Strantz in comparison to Tobacco Road or even Caledonia, I found it to be quite a fun place to play golf, and the members there are justifiably proud of their golf course.


Here's a few random shots from this past winter:











9



























« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 04:35:26 PM by Jon Cavalier »
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2016, 04:34:35 PM »
Always one of my absolute favorites, and it's also a shrine to Mike Strantz's memory and legacy. 


Bonus points for this painting, which in addition to being one of my all time favorite pieces of clubhouse artwork, is about the Strantziest painting imaginable. 





The golf architecture landscape would be a much better and more interesting place if it had 30-40 Strantz designs in it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 04:41:33 PM by Jon Cavalier »
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2016, 07:30:16 PM »
Great shots, Jon! Some of the best of Bulls Bay I've seen. Do you have any of the par threes?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2016, 08:01:50 PM »
BB takes on some similar looks to Royal New Kent at various points.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2016, 08:23:40 PM »
Looks like 9 at Shinnecock


Great pics


the place looks to have great variety-including some artificial topography  ;) [size=78%]in an area with minimal elevation change[/size]
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2016, 08:57:23 PM »
I LOVE this course!   Played it once during the Dixie Cup, and have longed to return :)

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2016, 12:50:57 AM »
Great shots, Jon! Some of the best of Bulls Bay I've seen. Do you have any of the par threes?


Thanks, Michael. Here are the par threes:


Hole No. 3:








Hole No. 7:








Hole No. 12:








Hole No. 14:











Hole No. 17:








Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2016, 10:51:02 AM »
This has been alluded to, but I'd like to offer up that the notion of Tobacco Road being a course one would rather play quarterly or so, vs. Bulls Bay being a course one would happily play every day, does not necessarily make Bulls Bay superior. The purposes of both golf courses is very different: Tobacco Road is a destination course meant 99% for visitors, while Bulls Bay is a private course where 99% of the play is repeat play. So why hold them to the same standard?


Tobacco Road is an incredible bratwurst wrapped in bacon and deep fried, while Bulls Bay is some of the best roast chicken you've ever had. One of those items is meant as a decadent escape, and the other is a staple. The context is very different.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2016, 12:20:52 PM »
Sean,


What is the purpose of the bunker stakes on #3? 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2016, 12:26:46 PM »
Sean,


What is the purpose of the bunker stakes on #3?

I don't have a clue Jim...unless its to help people mark their ball like they do on heathland courses. 

So...what do people think about the use of trees?

Tom...the tree on #1 seems to push people left...which when the hole is on the right of the green is a better angle, but one has to cope with the bunker.  This to me is a curious use of the tree.

Jon...thanks for the pix.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamey Bryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2016, 12:39:05 PM »
 I’ve enjoyed revisiting the discussion of one of my favorite low country courses.

First, to address the comment Sean made when restarting this thread, I agree that the few trees coming into play at Bulls Bay are used remarkably well in the strategic routing.  It’s probably worth noting that using these trees was probably less risky than usual in that live oaks are very slow growing and, absent catastrophic disease or casualty, live damn near forever!  More so with these than with other species, the holes are unlikely to be negatively impacted in the foreseeable future.
More generally regarding the course…….  Bulls Bay offers up a huge variety of shot values, from the full shots to requiring/rewarding creativity in the short game.  To illustrate, here’s a thread which followed the Dixie Cup 10 years ago (dubbed the Mike Stranz tour):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26535.msg497158.html#msg497158

Post #33 contains a couple of pictures Turboe took of my scrambling on #18…..  It’s unusual, in my experience at least, for this type of  play to be encountered on modern courses.  In post #13, I respond to some questions from (at that time a veritable infant) Tim Gavritch regarding the boldness of various features.

Finally, I find it interesting and persuasive that prior to Bulls Bay opening, most of the better players in the Charleston area were members of Country Club of Charleston or, if they lacked the finances or family pull to join there, were summer members of Yeamans Hall.  Fairly quickly following Bulls Bay opening, there was a migration from Yeamans.  It’s certainly a testament to BB that good players are happy playing there daily rather than a special course such as Yeamans.
 
Jamey
 

Jamey Bryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BULLS BAY: High Golf in Low Country
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2016, 12:48:28 PM »
Jim,

This is ONLY a guess, but left of that bunker is marsh.  It looks like they may have had an unusually high tide or surge recently (based on the standing water in other parts of the bunker) so they may have remarked the lateral hazard so players could take relief if they preferred (I guess it could also denote GUR, but I'd be surprised).

Jamey