Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916

[Tom MacWood]

Sorry Tom, but Tilly SPECIFICALLY wrote that he had design philosophical differences with CBM and with bothers. For example, just look up the recent thread in which Joe Bausch (I believe it was him) presented the newspaper article written by Tilly in which he discussed length of par-5s and how he greatly differed with Mackenzie.

By the way, since Tilly wrote literally volumes about golf course design, can you cite any references where he praised specific design features of other contemporaneous architects and then stated that he would use them himself?

At the time of CBM's death Tilly wrote that he'd disagreed with Macdonald's design practice of forcing copies on to the landscape (by the way I don't believe he did force them on to the landscape), but the fact remains Tilly did copy holes and features from abroad (like CBM), especially during the period he was working with Low and Lees.

Do you believe Tilly's persona was so great that he was not influenced by his colleagues?

Which courses did Tilly, Low & Lees collaborate on?

[Tom MacWood]

"The 5th at GCGC was a template hole used at Tailer's Ocean Links and the Greenbriar."


Tom MacWood:

That is very interesting. Silly me; I've always heretofore thought that CBM only used template holes from abroad. I have no doubt that if you say he used the 5th at GCGC as a template used at Tommy Tailer's Ocean Links and at the Greenbriar it must be true, but would you mind pointing out where CBM said that anyway?

Tommy? Were you two pretty tight? I know his son went by Tommy, but I've never seen T. Suffern Tailer referred to as Tommy. Here are couple of blurbs referring to the GCGC template.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Did Westhampton have the templates when it opened in 1915?

[Phil_the_Author]

Sorry Tom, but I'm not letting you off the hook on this one. You clearly stated that "Tilly's courses featured CBM features..."

You DIDN'T state that that Tilly copied features from courses he saw overseas but DID state that he copied "CBM features."

When and where? What proof and/or documentation do you have that he ever copied "CBM features" since you constantly demand that proof from others.

Yes, Tilly did copy holes and features that HE had seen abroad, but NOT as you stated "especially during the period he was working with Low and Lees..." implying that they influenced him to do so. Let's see if you can name how many features and holes he designed at Shawnee that were based upon holes in the UK. He had no problem using features that he admired from overseas but ONLY in cases where he believed that the hole he designed was the correct one for the location.

You also asked, "Do you believe Tilly's persona was so great that he was not influenced by his colleagues?" Define what you mean by the word "influenced."

"Which courses did Tilly, Low & Lees collaborate on?" Define what you mean by the word "collaborate."

By the way, the article he wrote after CBM died was not the ONLY time he wrote that he disagreed with CBM's design philosophy. I'll let you find the others one on your own or you can wait till Volume II of my Tilly writings comes out as their is a planned chapter on his views of his contemporaneous fellow architects.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

#3 is a prototypical template hole?

Yes, it's a punchbowl.


You are the first person to suggest #14 is a Plateau.

I find that hard to believe.
Anyone who's played the hole can see the obvious plateau, which is quite pronounced, at the back of the green.

I count 3 template holes...what is the average number of template holes per Raynor course?


I think your count would increase if you played the course.
There's a punchbowl, Redan, Short, Plateau, Biarritz.
I think a few other holes also have hybrid, template features, like the road hole, cape, etc., etc..

I don't think the "average" is relevant.  What difference does it make if the "average" was 3, 4, 5 or 8,
If Westhampton falls into the "range" ?

Is Westhampton unique in that respect?
I'm afraid that I don't understand the question.

Westhampton has 5 or more template holes, what about that number or numbers, would make Westhampton unique ?

And, "Unique" in what context ?  A numerical context ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip:

Your point in your last post is a good one about Tillinghast. It seems like some on here have become so fixated by Macdonald and/or his so-called template holes over here they might be forgetting that a number of his so-called Template holes such as the Redan are not templates of Macdonald's at all but templates from famous holes abroad that were the prototypes for certain holes done over here by a number of architects such as Tillinghast.  

TEPaul,

While that may be true, it was CBM who imported them to the U.S. and popularized them in the U.S.
Thus, I'd have to say that he was the springboard for those templates.

I believe that AWT copied a number of template concepts.
# 2 at Somerset Hills is probably exhibit A.

Macdonald didn't create those template holes; matter of fact it does not even appear he originally selected some of them as the most famous or respected holes of various types abroad----eg that was done by others abroad in a magazine contest or poll around 1900. All Macdonald did is first decide to reuse them or some of their most important features in American architecture. But he didn't invent them and as just shown he didn't even first select some of the most prominent of them (Alps, Redan, Eden Road etc) as the most respected holes and features and principles abroad---others did that before him and he was just the first to actually mimic some of them over here.

Being the first to "mimic them over here" is a quantum leap.
Prior to his importation, the golfing world was generally oblivious to those holes/designs.

1906 wasn't exactly a year where travel to Europe was a 5-8 hour flight for a quick golfing weekend.

CBM's importation was a revelation of monumental proportions in terms of design.

But he didn't conceive of them or even originate them and he certainly wasn't the only American architect who saw them abroad and perhaps appreciated their excellence and long before NGLA ever existed or had been thought of.


He may not have been the ONLY one, but, he was one of a VERY SMALL number of architects who had STUDIED THEM ALL.

Tillinghast was most certainly abroad and familiar with architecture over there long before Macdonald even came up with the idea of mimicking GB holes at NGLA as were a number of other American Architects particularly of the "amateur/sportsman" variety.


But, NONE of them thought to duplicate and import them.  NONE of them thought to incorporate those principles into their own work,
CBM and CBM alone made that leap.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"Tommy? Were you two pretty tight? I know his son went by Tommy, but I've never seen T. Suffern Tailer referred to as Tommy."



Tom MacWood:

You haven't? And you call yourself an 'expert' researcher of this time and these people?  

Well, you may call yourself an expert with this time and these people but obviously you aren't. What have you read (about them) by the way??  

Yes, T. Suffern Tailer was called Tommy by his friends that obviously included C.B. Macdonald!

Viz:
"T. Suffern Tailer's nine hole golf course at Newport was built upon flat pasture land, but by building up the greens and bunkering them after classical models the course is a most interesting one, as evidenced by the great interest best golfers take in Tommy Tailer's annual Golf Mashie Tournament."
Scotland's Gift Golf, by C.B. Macdonald

T. Suffern Tailer's son was also T. Suffern Tailer who was always known by his friends as Tommy too. I know that because he was a very good friend of my father and I remember Tommy Tailer around NGLA and Southampton in the old days (1950s I think). I think Tommy Tailer, the son, may've taken that famous Gold Mashie Tournament to NGLA perhaps after the original T. Suffern Tailer's Ocean Links in Newport was no more. My father obviously played in it a lot since I have a few silver coasters he won at it on a bureau in my house.

There were a group of those guys around NGLA back then who were all pretty unforgettable to me since I had to play golf with them and my father a few times at NGLA when I was a kid. To me they were all sort of bigger than life because some of them really were very tall and imposing figures; the likes of James Knott, Tommy Choate and Red Choate, Bobby Grant and Tommy Tailer; and there were others like them too numerous to mention now. Many of them were also drinkers of what I thought was herculean proportions in a sort of constant social way, if you get my drift! The most memorable in that latter way were Knott, Grant and Tommy Tailer!

I realize you are always questioning most everyone on here, Tom MacWood, figuring you can catch them up on some historic fact that has to do with golf or architecture in the old days and apparently make yourself look like you know some things others don't because you've read more or researched better than the rest of us. You can do all the reading and researching you want to, and you can even accuse me of knowing or saying some of this stuff because I spent the night in the Holliday Inn Express last night, as you have in the past on this website.

But the point is, Tom MacWood, we are talking about my life and my world here with the likes of Tommy Tailer, not your world. That is the world I grew up in and these are some of the people I remember around golf and such when I was young (the likes of Tommy Tailer). This is not to say I loved it or admired any of it back then or even now, because in many ways I didn't and I don't; and that probably comes from the fact I'm my father's son and even if he lived it about half of every year I think he pretty much hated that high-fallutin world and pretty much ran away from it. That's why after the war he tried to remain in Florida as much and as often as he could rather than spending more time in New York and Long Island even though inevitably he always had to.

So try not to question me as if I don't know what I'm talking about on the world I came from as if you might know more about it than I do because you claim you read more books or newspapers or research that time and place and the people from it more than the rest of us do, including me.

I don't do that to you and your life and the world you grew up in and came from, so you should try to refrain from doing that to me and mine on this website!

[Tom MacWood]

Sorry Tom, but I'm not letting you off the hook on this one. You clearly stated that "Tilly's courses featured CBM features..."

The Redan, the Principal's Nose and the Sahara bunker were holes and features CBM popularized in the US. They were prototypical CBM holes and features that Lees was familiar with through his association with Lido. Do you think it just a coincidence some of those features appeared on courses Tilly & Lees worked on together?

You DIDN'T state that that Tilly copied features from courses he saw overseas but DID state that he copied "CBM features."

When and where? What proof and/or documentation do you have that he ever copied "CBM features" since you constantly demand that proof from others.

Somerset Hills.

Yes, Tilly did copy holes and features that HE had seen abroad, but NOT as you stated "especially during the period he was working with Low and Lees..." implying that they influenced him to do so. Let's see if you can name how many features and holes he designed at Shawnee that were based upon holes in the UK. He had no problem using features that he admired from overseas but ONLY in cases where he believed that the hole he designed was the correct one for the location.

You also asked, "Do you believe Tilly's persona was so great that he was not influenced by his colleagues?" Define what you mean by the word "influenced."

If you don't want to answer the question, don't answer it. Its not a trick question.

"Which courses did Tilly, Low & Lees collaborate on?" Define what you mean by the word "collaborate."

Is this some kind of game? Designs and redesigns they worked together on.

By the way, the article he wrote after CBM died was not the ONLY time he wrote that he disagreed with CBM's design philosophy. I'll let you find the others one on your own or you can wait till Volume II of my Tilly writings comes out as their is a planned chapter on his views of his contemporaneous fellow architects.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood said:

"Tommy? Were you two pretty tight? I know his son went by Tommy, but I've never seen T. Suffern Tailer referred to as Tommy."



Tom MacWood:

You haven't? And you call yourself an 'expert' researcher of this time and these people?  

Well, you may call yourself an expert with this time and these people but obviously you aren't. What have you read (about them) by the way??  

Yes, T. Suffern Tailer was called Tommy by his friends that obviously included C.B. Macdonald!

Viz:
"T. Suffern Tailer's nine hole golf course at Newport was built upon flat pasture land, but by building up the greens and bunkering them after classical models the course is a most interesting one, as evidenced by the great interest best golfers take in Tommy Tailer's annual Golf Mashie Tournament."
Scotland's Gift Golf, by C.B. Macdonald

T. Suffern Tailer's son was also T. Suffern Tailer who was always known by his friends as Tommy too. I know that because he was a very good friend of my father and I remember Tommy Tailer around NGLA and Southampton in the old days (1950s I think). I think Tommy Tailer, the son, may've taken that famous Gold Mashie Tournament to NGLA perhaps after the original T. Suffern Tailer's Ocean Links in Newport was no more. My father obviously played in it a lot since I have a few silver coasters he won at it on a bureau in my house.

There were a group of those guys around NGLA back then who were all pretty unforgettable to me since I had to play golf with them and my father a few times at NGLA when I was a kid. To me they were all sort of bigger than life because some of them really were very tall and imposing figures; the likes of James Knott, Tommy Choate and Red Choate, Bobby Grant and Tommy Tailer; and there were others like them too numerous to mention now. Many of them were also drinkers of what I thought was herculean proportions in a sort of constant social way, if you get my drift! The most memorable in that latter way were Knott, Grant and Tommy Tailer!

I realize you are always questioning most everyone on here, Tom MacWood, figuring you can catch them up on some historic fact that has to do with golf or architecture in the old days and apparently make yourself look like you know some things others don't because you've read more or researched better than the rest of us. You can do all the reading and researching you want to, and you can even accuse me of knowing or saying some of this stuff because I spent the night in the Holliday Inn Express last night, as you have in the past on this website.

But the point is, Tom MacWood, we are talking about my life and my world here with the likes of Tommy Tailer, not your world. That is the world I grew up in and these are some of the people I remember around golf and such when I was young (the likes of Tommy Tailer). This is not to say I loved it or admired any of it back then or even now, because in many ways I didn't and I don't; and that probably comes from the fact I'm my father's son and even if he lived it about half of every year I think he pretty much hated that high-fallutin world and pretty much ran away from it. That's why after the war he tried to remain in Florida as much and as often as he could rather than spending more time in New York and Long Island even though inevitably he always had to.

So try not to question me as if I don't know what I'm talking about on the world I came from as if you might know more about it than I do because you claim you read more books or newspapers or research that time and place and the people from it more than the rest of us do, including me.

I don't do that to you and your life and the world you grew up in and came from, so you should try to refrain from doing that to me and mine on this website!

Tommy
Thank you for sharing those entertaining anecdotes....the sharing of those stories and personal experiences is one of your greatest strengths, and gives us all special insight into your world. For that reason you are major asset to this site. Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Tommy MacWood:

No problem, and thank you so much for recognizing that after about ten years on here. There is nothing like direct and personal experiences on and with some of these courses going back to at least to the early '50s and sometimes the late '40s for me. Up until maybe the late 1990s and the inception of Golfclubatlas.com I figured some of this kind of direct information would only interest some of us old people perhaps around the lockerrooms or grills or barrooms of some of these clubs themselves.

But I'm happy to know you are interested and willing to learn from some of the direct personal experiences of others for a change instead of trying to find these histories only in the dry and dusty pages of old newspaper and magazine articles and even in the same vein in the old administrative records of the clubs themselves, including their more current history books.

Believe me, whenever you find somebody really old whose recollections go way back such as Crump's caddie or Eb Steineger or even Joe Dye, the very best thing is to sit them down as fast as possible and pick their brains because if you don't the next thing you know they too will be gone forever and so will their valuable direct recollections, stories and remembrances!  

[Tom MacWood]

Pat
George claims #3 is an Eden. Whatever it is would you agree it isn't a prototypical Eden hole or Punchbowl hole? Is #14 a double plateau green? Other than Westhampton what is fewest number of templates on a CBM/Raynor/Banks original design?

[TEPaul]

George claims #3 WHERE is an Eden?

[Phil_the_Author]

Sorry Tom, but I'm not letting you off the hook on this one. You clearly stated that "Tilly's courses featured CBM features..."

The Redan, the Principal's Nose and the Sahara bunker were holes and features CBM popularized in the US. They were prototypical CBM holes and features that Lees was familiar with through his association with Lido. Do you think it just a coincidence some of those features appeared on courses Tilly & Lees worked on together?

Tom, you are wrong. These are features that CBM COPIED himself. They are NOT CBM features. Tilly used great hazards including the "Sahara" type of bunker BEFORE Lees worked for him and without doing so because CBM COPIED these same features elsewhere.

You DIDN'T state that that Tilly copied features from courses he saw overseas but DID state that he copied "CBM features."

When and where? What proof and/or documentation do you have that he ever copied "CBM features" since you constantly demand that proof from others.

Somerset Hills .

Again Tom you are wrong and in this instance several ways. First, I asked "What proof or documentation do you have that he ever copied "CBM features." The two word Answer "Somerset Hills" is neither. Where is anything written that states that Tilly designed any portion of SDomerset Hills because or imitation of what CBM built? You know there is NOTHING. Just because 2 architects use a similar feature doesn't mean that one COPIED from the other. If that was the case trhen you'd have to say that EVERY architect that designed a course in America with Mid-Surrey style bunkering did so because they were copying Tilly who did it FIRST. So, once again, give us PROOF or DOCUMENTATION otherwise everything you stated is supposition or personal opinion, either of which is fine.

Yes, Tilly did copy holes and features that HE had seen abroad, but NOT as you stated "especially during the period he was working with Low and Lees..." implying that they influenced him to do so. Let's see if you can name how many features and holes he designed at Shawnee that were based upon holes in the UK. He had no problem using features that he admired from overseas but ONLY in cases where he believed that the hole he designed was the correct one for the location.

You also asked, "Do you believe Tilly's persona was so great that he was not influenced by his colleagues?" Define what you mean by the word "influenced."

If you don't want to answer the question, don't answer it. Its not a trick question.

I didn't say that I didn't want to answer it; I merely asked you to define what you are asking.

"Which courses did Tilly, Low & Lees collaborate on?" Define what you mean by the word "collaborate."

Is this some kind of game? Designs and redesigns they worked together on.

Tom, your answer is EXACTLY why I asked you to DEFINE what you meant by "colaborate" as your answer doesn't. Are you asking me which courses they CO-DESIGNED or merely WORKED ON as in one did the design and layout another oversaw the construction another oversaw the turf... YOU be specific because what you are asking for isn't clear.


By the way, the article he wrote after CBM died was not the ONLY time he wrote that he disagreed with CBM's design philosophy. I'll let you find the others one on your own or you can wait till Volume II of my Tilly writings comes out as their is a planned chapter on his views of his contemporaneous fellow architects.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

George claims #3 is an Eden.


That's hard to believe.
I'd have to speak to George about that.
It's clearly a punchbowl, absent any reasonable resemblance to an Eden.

Whatever it is would you agree it isn't a prototypical Eden hole or Punchbowl hole?

It's a punchbowl.
Not identical to # 16 at NGLA, but, a punchbowl nonetheless.
A good deal of a punchbowl's architectural qualities can often be dictated by the maintainance practices, especially on the area immediately adjacent to the putting surface.

# 3 is a blind hole from the tee.

# 1 on the 4th nine at Montclair is similar in the green structure and green surrounds

Is #14 a double plateau green?

I don't believe so, but, I'd have to re-examine the front portion of the green to rule out a semi or hybrid double plateau.

Other than Westhampton what is fewest number of templates on a CBM/Raynor/Banks original design?

I wouldn't know the answer to that because I haven't played every CBM/SR/CB course.
But, of the ones I've played, the templates and hand of CBM/SR/CB seems rather obvious

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip Young,

The preponderance of AWT's work was in the 20's with a smattering in the late teens.

It would be hard to imagine that AWT ignored the body of CBM's work in the early teens.

In what year did AWT first visit TOC ?

How extensively did AWT travel in the U.K. ? And, how often (years ?)

The "Sahara" was certainly popularized by # 2 at NGLA.

I think that AWT's body of work is exceptional and find his collection of par 5's to be amongst the very best on any designer ..... ever.
He seemed to have a penchant for good to great par 5's.

To me, that seems to be one of the design areas where he distanced himself from other architects

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You definitely don't need to talk to George about whether #3 at Westhampton is an Eden.  It just isn't anything of the kind. As you say it's a punchbowl green and a punchbowl green is about as different from an Eden green as it can get. No way at all George is going to call a Punchbowl green an Eden green. MacWood must be confused and I guess this is what happens when one tries to act informed about any golf course without even having seen the place. From my recollection a fairly similar punchbowl par 3 green to Westhampton's #3 is Misquamicut's #12.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Collaborate as in working together on the same project.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
You are absolutely right Tilly did travel abroad and no doubt saw these original holes and features, but it is impossible for either one of us to prove either of our positions so get off your high horse. You can not prove Tilly was copying these features directly from what he saw abroad and I can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he was influenced by CBM, directly or by way of Lees. I will say one thing in my favor, his Redan at Somerset Hills is closer to CBM's model than it is to the original at North Berwick.

[Tom MacWood]

the hole photo you posted is the 3rd - it is a sunken version of the Eden ( very weird - one of a kind), but fun

TEP
You're on hot streak. Early today it was the 5th at GCGC and now the Eden Westhampton. I thought you were al CBM aficionado.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat Mucci, you stated and asked:

The preponderance of AWT's work was in the 20's with a smattering in the late teens.

"Smattering" of courses? He worked on at least 36 courses that we know of between 1911 and 1919.

It would be hard to imagine that AWT ignored the body of CBM's work in the early teens.

How many courses did CBM do between 1905 & 1919? Far fewer than Tilly did. Actually, based upon your reasoning, it would be hard to imagine that CBM ignored Tilly's work and was not influenced by him. And again, Tilly wrote that CBM designed some "very good courses" but that he had a profound disagreement with him in his design philosophy.

In what year did AWT first visit TOC ?

1895

How extensively did AWT travel in the U.K. ? And, how often (years ?)

1895, 1898 & 1901 staying about 2+ months each time.

The "Sahara" was certainly popularized by # 2 at NGLA.

Tilly designed major fairway bunkers beginning at Shawnee which was designed in 1909 well BEFORE NGLA was finished, opened for play and popular. Actually one can make an argument that many of his contemporaries copied Tilly's bunker style...

I think that AWT's body of work is exceptional and find his collection of par 5's to be amongst the very best on any designer ..... ever.
He seemed to have a penchant for good to great par 5's.

And I think that Mackenzie designed fabulous par-5s yet if you'll look back just a few pages there is a thread that was started by Joe Bausch based upon an article that Tilly wrote in which he compared his own philosophy of what makes a proper-length par-5 and why Mackenzie's belief that all 5's (Tilly's words not mine) should be reachable in two shots by the good player and that 480 yards was a proper length was wrong...

To me, that seems to be one of the design areas where he distanced himself from other architects

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I'm on a hot srreak am I? Well, if I or anyone else on here can even remotely follow your laundry list of irrelevent questions about all the golf courses you pretend to have some personal understanding of and some knowledge of their history and architecture, the latest case being Westhampton which you have also never seen, then we would all be on hot streaks.

I know the 3rd at Westhampton well and I know the 5th at GCGC pretty well too even though I know virtually nothing about T. Suffern ("Tommy" ) Tailer's Ocean Links in Newport because it was probably gone before I was alive and you as well or even George Bahto, believe it or not.

But I'll tell you one thing, it makes no difference at all if George Bahto said the 3rd hole at Westhampton is an Eden; the fact is it just isn't anything of the kind, period! I doubt GeorgeB thinks so and if he said that he will probably tell you that now if asked and if he doesn't and he actually thinks it is some kind of punchbowl Eden green then I'm just going to have to tell you that George is full of shit but I very much doubt he would say that he thinks it's an Eden if you asked him now and if he said it on here at some point in the past I have no doubt at all he would admit he was mistaken for some reason.

[TEPaul]

"Phil
You are absolutely right Tilly did travel abroad and no doubt saw these original holes and features, but it is impossible for either one of us to prove either of our positions so get off your high horse. You can not prove Tilly was copying these features directly from what he saw abroad and I can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he was influenced by CBM, directly or by way of Lees."


Tom MacWood:

If you are going to ask Philip Young to get off his high horse because he may not be able to prove something, and then you admit you can't prove something either, why don't you consider getting off your constant HIGH HORSE on this website? I say that, at this point, because I can guarantee you that you are and are perceived to be a completely arrogant intellectual snob on here with no visible or apparent reason for being anything like that.

[Tom MacWood]

the hole photo you posted is the 3rd - it is a sunken version of the Eden ( very weird - one of a kind), but fun

TEP
In the past as in the last month - see the date. Whatever the case, though the punchbowl green is typical, a punchbowl short hole is not typical for CBM/Raynor/Banks. Agreed?

Did Westhampton have the templates when it opened in 1915?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Macwood,

"Phil, Collaborate as in working together on the same project."

Sorry, but you simply are either missing the point or not stating what you actually believe without realizing it. That was why I asked you to define it as I feel that you think that Lees & Low didn't "work together" as in Tilly designed a course and they oversaw construction and truf issues but rather that you believe they CO-DESIGNED the courses they worked with him on which is something that DIDN'T happen. Tilly himself made models for the holes he designed and demanded that they be followed as closely as possible when he visited to inspect the course work. In fact, I recently visted a club where Tilly designed their course and because the constructors didn't follow his plans and models properly that they brought him back to redo the entire course, spending a lot more money in doing so.

"Phil, You are absolutely right Tilly did travel abroad and no doubt saw these original holes and features, but it is impossible for either one of us to prove either are positions so get off your high horse. You can not prove Tilly was copying these features directly from what he saw abroad and I can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he was influenced by CBM, directly or by way of Lees. I will say one thing in my favor, his Redan at Somerset Hills is closer to CBM's model than it is to the original at North Berwick."

Tom, it is you whose horse is high.  You were the one who specifically stated as fact that Tilly copied CBM features on a number of his courses. How many times has someone on this site made a statement of that type and you demanded that they provide proof and documentation? Many times as we both know. Yet has anyone said to you to get off your high horse? I asked of you what you so often ask of others, that is, to provide the proof for the statement.

Secondly, I CAN provide proof for many of the instances where he copied features from abroad because he specifically wrote of this. for example, from day one at Shawnee Tilly spoke of how his mounding scheme there and at many courses through his career were specifically based on those found at Mid-Surrey even going to the extent that he would write an article claiming that he was the first in America to do this and that other's claims to this were wrong. This type of information is being covered in my Tilly Volume II.

Tom, I would never have a problem with you or anyone else writing that they believed that Tilly was influenced by CBM or anyone else, but that isn't what you do. You seem to constantly make statements that come across as established fact rather than as being one of your opinion. That is what you did in this case and why I demanded proof. That you now state that you can't prove it is fine and is an admittance of having giving an opinion which is how you ended above by giving your opinion that Tilly's Redan at Somerset Hills is closer to CBM's than the original at North Berwick."
 

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Tilly, Low and Lees worked together for a short period early in Tilly's design career, if you don't care for my definition of collaboration define it yourself just answer the question if you can.

Mid Surrey mounding? Did CBM copy the Mid Surrey mounding?