Anyone out there watching the women?

[George Pazin]

I know this thread doesn't have anything to do with architecture and I fully expect & support a decision to trash it in a few days, but, after watching Ty Votaw on TGC last night & spending the day thinking about the LPGA while I was printing t shirts, I'm just wondering if anyone out there will watch the LPGA when it's going head to head with the PGA tour (at least on the tube in my area)?

Anyone?

[THuckaby2]

I must admit I have watched the LPGA if it's one of their majors and the men are playing a ho-hum event and there's absolutely no other sports on.  It also depends on who the leaders are... I'd watch Laura Diaz and Grace Park and a select very few others play bocce ball.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Head to head?

No. Unless it's the Women's US Open.

Last I looked, there were three more-or-less empty days in the weekly golf calendar. Is it unthinkable for the LPGA to play its tournaments to end on Wednesdays?

Head to head is a losing idea for the LPGA.

[Dan Kelly]

[Duplicate. Sorry.]

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tournaments ending on Wednesdays would have very sparse galleries for M-W, NOT what anyone wants.

I will always have at least a moderate interest in the LPGA Tour because I grew up in small town with an LPGA tournament (Corning, NY), where the tournament is basically the Event of the Year in town and the women are fully appreciated and are all stars as far as the fans are concerned.  I went every year from inception (1979) to my senior year in H.S. (1985) and a few times since then.  Once washed balls on the range during a practice round.

Side note:  I talked with Hank, Trip, and Kelly Kuehne's mom at the U.S. Open in Pinehurst while following Hank around and she just gushed about how she and Kelly loved Corning, since Kelly had just had her first LPGA victory at Corning a few weeks prior.  I think they loved it anyways.

I find it interesting that after older brothers had their bout with fleeting golf fame (Trip in Amateur final and Hank's Amateur victory and long-hitting notoriety), that Kelly is the one who is the most successful so far.

As far as my viewing habits, I watch very little of any tournament golf on TV on weekends, because it conflicts with just about everything.  I watch the Women's Open and the Corning Classic and sometimes the LPGA Championship, since it's on my former home course.   The nen's Masters will always be #1, then U.S. Open/British Open.

[SPDB]

That Hank won his Amateur down the road at Oak Hill probably doesn't hurt their view of the area either.  

[Matt_Ward]

I submit the multiple choice question below ...

What is the most painful of options?
a). Chinese water torture
b). LPGA Golf
c). PGA Sr. Golf
d). Remembering the days of Brent Musburger MC-ing golf
e). All of the above

My answer is "E" ...

Unless "real" golf is being played by the world's best I'll take a pass on any of them. I have watched many European tour events and there acceptable provided they either have a good field or solid venue. My answer is not about being anti-women or anti-senior it's just that I want to see the highest of levels in golf compete.

Watching women hit choke down 5-woods from 180 into greens that are open in front to me isn't r-e-a-l golf -- sorry! And, on the senior side there are no personalities worth keeping me in front of the tube -- although I truly admire the continuing skill of Hale Irwin. Senior golf in my mind without a major overhaul is on its last legs. The women, if clever marketing and pr is done can make inroads but staying away from the PGA Tour's big events is an absolute must.

Give me Tiger and the boys anyday and if the venue is up to snuff I'm game to watch all afternoon.

[wsmorrison]

Brent Musberger is the worst announcer in sports history!  Who does he have pictures of and what are they doing?  Give me Richie Ashburn and Harry Kalas announcing a baseball game and even the Phillies are worth listening to 162 times a year!

Speaking of Rich and Harry, I'm heading up to Cooperstown.  Kalas is being inducted for broadcasting excellence.  Has anyone played Leatherstocking?  It is a fun course to play with nice design elements in a great setting.  The old ball players are awesome to listen to and drink with....too bad that the modern players in sports today are such boors (they deserve Musberger).

[ed_getka]

The LPGA tour is useful for insomnia, although I do watch the Women's open, especially when its at Prairie Dunes.

[Ran Morrissett]

I became a fan after going to the Women's Open at Pine Needles last year as their game is the only one I can relate to - drives about 245y and 7 irons about 155y. Plus, you see a clunker shot from time to time, and up and downs (especially from bunkers) are far from automatic.

The televised event from Prairie Dunes is bound to be one of the highlights of the year for an architect junkie.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
You surely left me with the impression that you are anti senior and anti women. It wasn't necessary to take a shot at either of these groups by designating their brand of golf as not r-e-a-l.  If you prefer watching the big boys tour that is your perogative and you need'nt have said more.

[JohnV]

Having spent the past two seasons as a rules official on the Futures Tour, I find the women very interesting to watch.  Much better than watching a bunch of over 50 guys riding carts to their next shot.

Even without the connections and friendships that I made while out there, I would still watch the women play.

I would also say that setting up a golf course for the women is more fun than for the men because we got to actually look at the course and say, "How did the architect intend this hole to play?" before determining which tee to use rather than just sticking them on the back pads and watching the players take the course apart.

Watch for Beth Bauer to make more and more of a name for herself over the year.  I'm also rooting for a left-handed Canadian player named Angela Buzminski to do well.  She has all the talent needed and just needs to get it together one week and we'll see her contending if not winning.

[George Pazin]

I think it's easier to make the argument that a choke down 5 wood out of the rough to an open front green is more "real golf" than driver/wedge to 90% of all par fours than vice versa.

P.S. I can imagine few things more torturous than living in the Bay Area & seeing what those guys have to put up with on an ongoing basis.

P.P.S. Dan Kelly - I could use some editing help on my first statement.  

[Paul Turner]

I used to really enjoy going to European women's tournaments at my old local club Woburn.  For a few years we had a couple of events a year, including the big one the British Open.

One of the highlights was following a certain unknown A. Sorenstam almost win her first tour event.  And Karrie Webb's big breakthrough at the British Open, where she played the greatest shot I've ever witnessed at the 16th.

Matt

I'd be very surprised if you could actually "see" a difference in quality of play between watching a men's Euro event vs a PGA Tour event.  I'm sure the stats are almost identical.  

[Will E]

I tuned into this thread in hopes of finding a new link to Tiger's girlfriends.

Unless watching a major on a great course, it's tough for me to sit through. I did really enjoy the women's opens at Blackwolf Run and Indianwood. Does anyone other than Gib have an answer into fixing this problem?

I've always wanted to attend the "Nabisco", I recall a classic thread recommending a quaint place to stay.  

[Mike O'Neill]

Does my girlfriend count? She just took up the game. I guess this thread is about television though.  

I applaud the consistency of the better players on the LPGA. I doubt that I will ever be able to putt as well as a lot of them. Nor can I hit the ball as straight. Nor can I break par, even from the forward tees. It is not difficult for me to enjoy watching great golfers play the game. They know their distances. They know their shots. They know their games.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shooter,
Here's one:  Create the Babe Didrickson Memorial tournament  and establish it as a major. Increase the purse by piggybacking three sponsors and charge them each 1/2 of what they would pay as a single sponsor. This should make the payout at least as good as the senior tour and audiences might just follow the money.
As an added perk(this should draw some howls   ) give the winner an exemption into the next year's Masters. She could take Doug Ford's spot.

[no name today]

ok guys you say watching the ladies is boring but their are some good players out on the womans tour that Could kick the crap out of European tour players.  I like the idea that Jim Kennedy made in the sense that you should let the u.s open womans champion play in the Masters.

Heck guys what do you want them to do buy the rights of the Hooters tour and thus rename LPGA so. I bet they would look good in those little tight orange shorts and white shirts.    



" I suggested that the construction of bunkers on various courses should have an individuality entirely of their own which arouses the love or hatred of intelligent golfers"
                                                -Charles Blair Macdonald

[Richard_Goodale]

"No name"

You picked a good day to go anoynmous!  With all due respect, there is not a woman in the world who could make a living on any Men's tours in the world, including the Hooters.  In fact, if any of them even made the cut playing the same tees it would be a major surprise.

Yes these ladies can play, but it is a different game.  Vive la difference!

Like the idea of one lady player in the Masters, though.  It would add a bit of spice.  She might even just pip Doug Ford or Seve for the wooden spoon.....

[Matt_Ward]

Jim Kennedy:

What I said is reflected in the item that counts on
television -- ratings! The women don't draw any numbers because if they did you'd see them on TV every weekend -- you don't. The goal for the women as I said previously is to concentrate on the smaller markets where there are voids from the PGA Tour. Does anyone believe the LPGA Tour can conduct business as usual and still be around in the next 10 years or so with major corporate support. That's why they gathered all their players for a group mtg recently to assess what they have to do in order to get ANY sort of meaningful media and fan attention.

The seniors have played the string for too long ... it's time for a major overhaul because this excuse for "milking the cow" has come to an end. How long are we going to see Arnie playing in the Super, Super Senior or whatever they want to call it.

I am not anti-women or anti-senior but MY prerogative is to watch the ultimate best play. I don't even watch the no-name PGA Tour stops because I believe in the adage that less is more. Keep in mind all of you who are politically correct that I also can't stand all the silly season events that parade as "real golf" in the fall and winter months.

And to answer "No Name Today" you need to get your eyes as well as your head examined. Rich covered this point without beating it to death. Believe me if the women / seniors were good enough to compete against the "big boys" they'd be out there doing it because the $$ and publicity would be tooooo good to pass up.

Paul T:

I enjoy watching the European tour when the field and venues are worth watching ... that's what I said. You say the "stats may be identical" but Paul let's be clear the star power isn't there and anyone who knows golf knows the American tour is the place to play and grow as a golf superstar.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shivas,
If you tune into the LPGA event this weekend you will see the best playing in their particular sport, women's golf. The men have their minor leagues, Buy.com, Hooters, Moonlight,etc..

Matt,
This is not about being politically correct. We should be applauding the fact that these ladies have been doing this for over 50 years and have grown their purses to a little over an average of a million dollars per event. That is pretty impressive when you consider the competition they are up against. Hopefully they will be able to identify what they need to do in the near and long term to improve their position.

[Dan Kelly]

Shivas --

You write: "People pay to see the best in a particular sport.  The rest is the minor leagues.  That's just the way it is."

I don't think it's that simple. Otherwise, just for example, how do you explain the phenomenal growth in the popularity of women's college basketball?

Objectively speaking, the women are not such good basketball players as the men -- yet their game is blossoming. Why? Can the LPGA learn anything from that?

I think they can.

Here's my LPGA idea (and well-suited to various other golf tours, I might add) for the week: Team Golf. I think it's inescapable that people -- at least Americans -- are generally (auto racing excepted?) more interested in rooting for teams than for individuals ... especially when the individuals might not be, as a rule, fascinating personalities. (You know, like most athletes?   )

Women's Team Golf -- complete with a draft, and captains, and trades, and one- or two-day televised matches held at courses all over the country.

It could be a Good Thing.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan Kelly:

The idea of team events was tried with tennis and it died (thankfully) very quickly. The LPGA has stars but clearly Annika and Karrie are not "people" oriented in the manner Nancy Lopez was. I can remember vividly the stir that Nancy caused in 1978 when she had that great winning streak along with that wonderful smile that enveloped everyone. Tours need compelling stars that elicit fan interest. On the men's PGA level you have a range of stars -- even Craig Perks victory at TPC was nothing short of sensational given the manner in which it ended.

The LPGA needs to focus on the mid-sized and smaller locales to build a fan base. Remember the US Senior Open when it was held in Des Moines -- total sell-out compared to the funeral event held the year before at Riviera. That strategy is needed because smaller towns will never get a Final Four, a Super Bowl, a major NASCAR race, you get the picture. One event that really hurts the LPGA is its desire to come to the NYC area with its Sybase event -- formerly the JAL Classic. The event is lucky to draw people because it comes in July and you have people interested in everything else but women's golf. The only real event that should be in the NYC area is the Buick Classic because of its affiliation with the PGA Tour and the likelihood of super stars like Tiger playing. The rest is just small potatoes minus the die-hard golf fans who would watch just about anything.

Most women sports, save figure skating, just don't have the fan base or interest from the men who do most of the watching. That doesn't mean to say girls / women at many levels are not participating -- just check out any Saturday morning at parks throughout the USA and see what is happening with soccer and softball programs and the like.

I'll say this again -- women's golf needs to reinvent itself not by dramatically changing what it is but in deciding where it must go to be successful. The ShopRite Classic held each year in AC is a solid event because it knows how be fan-friendly and it doesn't have to worry about competing directly against major league baseball and all the other stuff that's on the calendar in a big city environment like NYC, Chicago or LA.

Senior golf is also in need of a major overhaul. How anyone can sit through and watch such dreary events week after week is beyond me -- and to top matters off many of the events were on tape delay! It's time to change the age requirement and eliminate the gap of those who are at 45 -- get them while they can still play and generate fan excitement for those events.

If you don't know the market -- you won't know how to showcase your product. Corporate retrenchment is happening in sponsorship $$ but it won't hurt the PGA Tour right away -- it will though effect the Senior Tour and the LPGA in that order unless each of them makes serious changes in the manner in which they market themselves.

[Dan Kelly]

Shivas --

In other words: The growth of women's college basketball is a classic case in support of supply-side economics!

How ironic!

At least in quite a few places, if not all: The demand is there now, baby, and the money is flowing in. People are paying good money to watch less-than-the-best; telecasters are paying good money to telecast less-than-the-best.

Whether demand begat supply or supply begat demand (and let's leave out of the discussion the government's role in the matter, because the government clearly has no role to play in the matter of women's professional golf), I still say that your statement -- "People pay to see the best in a particular sport.  The rest is the minor leagues.  That's just the way it is" -- is contradicted by the growing popularity of women's college basketball, and that women's professional golf would do well to consider how women's collegiate basketball has managed to create a growing demand for its product.

[Ed_Baker]

It really is a shame to see the LPGA struggling.I personally enjoy the product, but as many have already stated if the events are opposite the PGA Tour on T.V. then it's no contest.

The ladies game is what it is and it will never compete with the mens tour head to head. That's not to say that the LPGA is a bad product, it just is always going to generate less fan interest than the mens tour, particularly on television.

I think the smaller regional markets are going to be the ticket.
The LPGA ran the Welch's Tournament at Blue Hills CC in Canton Ma. for a number of years and watching these women play in person is a very good spectating experience. The quality of the golf is much better than it comes off on television.

 I have played in a number of proams on both tours and my personal experience was that the women were much more attentive to their amatuers than the men were. The ladies that I played golf with were friendly, open and candid. They would talk about the difficulties of life on the road for women and trying to balance a pro golf career with marriage,relationships and motherhood. By and large the conversation was much more interesting and diverse with the lady pros. Very classy and interesting people. One of the more interesting observations was how supportive the woman are of each other. Yes, they are fierce competitors but the "name" players mingle with the rank and file much more than the obvious "pecking order" on the mens tour. I was impressed each time I participated.

Now, having said all that, I would still rather watch Tiger and the boys play. Hardly unique, but that's the crux of the LPGA's marketing problem.