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Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the thread on OM in Bandon, Peter made an anology to A Wonderful life:

" For some reason this thread reminded me of a story that director Frank Capra tells about "It's a Wonderful Life". He says he never recovered from the very luke-warm reception the film originally received in 1946 (by the public and critics alike); he says it shattered his confidence in himself completely. Indeed, during the next 20 years, this multiple Oscar-winning and prolific director made (I think) only or or two more movies, and then left Hollywood for good."

It made me wonder what golf course equivalents there are to the work of art that was misunderstood when it first opened, but came to be recognised, more or less universally, as classics?


Michael Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 06:55:37 AM »
I may be wrong here, but wasn't Oakmont criticised at first as being too hard?

If it was, then that would qualify, as I'm sure most people accept that as a classic.

Pup

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 07:21:25 AM »
Crystal Downs
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 02:24:27 PM »
Crystal Downs wasn't panned by anybody -- it was just undiscovered.

And Oakmont is STILL being criticized for being too hard, which is part of its appeal.


I am not sure there really is an equivalent in golf architecture to the Capra story.  The only cases I can think of are courses like the TPC at Sawgrass, Trent Jones' revision of Oakland Hills, or even Pine Valley, all of which were roundly criticized as being insanely hard when they opened.  [I know that everyone in Philadelphia loved Pine Valley from Day 1, but the foreword to Wethered & Simpson's "Design for Golf" indicates that others were not so sure.]

Ballyneal could be another, in time ... I was a bit disappointed when it came sixth in the GOLF DIGEST Best New competition the year it opened.  Luckily my confidence is not so easily shattered.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 02:32:05 PM »
Lots of people still profess little love for The Old Course, believing the appeal is largely one of tradition.

How about Atlantic GC or The Bridge? :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 02:36:49 PM »
Was Augusta National all that well received when it first opened?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 03:11:45 PM »
I believe Peter said the Capra movie was nominated for an Academy Award...it just didn't win, nor did it generate much public love initially.

Ballyneal's trajectory/potential might be a good comparison.

Otherwise, it's really tough to tell because the economic dynamic is so much different. If noone goes to see a movie there's still the record of it being made and you can go find it 60 years later and learn from it.

If noone had joined Augusta during the Depression we couldn't argue how much better the old 11th hole was today...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 03:16:08 PM »
Richard - what I thought was particularly interesting about the Capra story is that he didn't so much lose confidence in his directorial abilities/talents as he did in his ability to gauge what a mainstrean audience would like/react positively to.  For many years he had prided himself on knowing/understanding/serving the popular tastes, and when audiences rejected the film it was a blow to that sense of himself.  What's interesting about courses like Pine Valley and Oakmont is that, for any early criticism, their creators had successfully understood and served the tastes of their 'audiences', their members.  Then and now there's rarely high critial praise for the extremely hard golf course; but it seems that, then and now, there is always a smaller/niche market for them.

Peter

And Jim makes a good (and maybe the fundamental) point about the differing economics and resulting life-spans of movies vs golf.  Another element is one of eras: Frank's movie came out near the tail end of the studio days - and I think much like the now-gone era of the three television networks, there was only 'one' audience back then, one big mass of collective taste that had to be satisfied in order to be viable. (Not a good description but I hope you know what I mean).  I don't think that was ever the case in golf, not for PV and not for Ballyneal. The one time it was -- during the huge explosion of high-end country clubs for a day type courses -- hasn't worked out so well for the viability of the product.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 03:27:45 PM by PPallotta »

Thomas McQuillan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 03:19:09 PM »
Lots of people still profess little love for The Old Course, believing the appeal is largely one of tradition.

How about Atlantic GC or The Bridge? :)

The Old Course is misunderstood by just about everyone on the first play.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 08:55:47 PM »
Lots of people still profess little love for The Old Course, believing the appeal is largely one of tradition.

How about Atlantic GC or The Bridge? :)

The Old Course is misunderstood by just about everyone on the first play.

Its "the worst piece of mess" I've ever seen.

Signed,

Scott Hoch

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 09:42:12 PM »
How bout Sandwich?  It was criticised as a big hitter's parade when it opened.  It is still being criticised today as too quirky despite the decades of dumbing down the quirk which I think continues til this day.

How bout Kiawah's Ocean Course - or is it too early to tell?  I think the course has been gentrified a bit since it opened, but was it truly loved then or now?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 11:14:02 PM »
I certainly could be wrong on this, but didn't Capra shoot a couple different versions or endings of "It's a Wonderful Life"?  I really don't kow much about filmography.  But, that sticks in my mind about multiple versions.

I'm getting at the editting process if there is a comparative point of process to be made.  Then, I wonder if Erin Hills has a chance to someday become highly acclaimed, after some 'editting'.  Are there courses like that... courses that opened and soon needed a fix to reach a greater acceptance or critical acclaim? 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 11:30:16 PM »
Kingsley

Monterey Penninsula (Shore)

Tobacco Road

Mayakoba-El Cameleon

Askernish

Thoughts?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 12:56:42 AM »
Peter:

The other problem with this comparison is that nobody can go back and edit Capra's film without permission, but a golf course which isn't successful will probably be modified to please someone ... if not its original designer.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 03:55:06 AM »
Mac,

Although Mr. Doak will find this comment entirely predictable, I DO think that Kingsley will eventually get the recognition it deserves (which would be a top 100 course in all publications).  It already has gotten pretty good recognition from Golfweek and given the current trend at Golf Digest, I assume it is only a matter of time before it will receive enough raters/ratings to crack the top 100.

Though based on the hype machine I still anticipate having to buy a shirt with a ridiculous rooster on it for when I play Kingsley in the summer of 2012 ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 11:01:46 AM »
Peter:

The other problem with this comparison is that nobody can go back and edit Capra's film without permission, but a golf course which isn't successful will probably be modified to please someone ... if not its original designer.

Tom,

That 10 year contract makes it more likely to be the original designer...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 11:54:42 AM by Jim Sullivan »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2010, 11:30:29 AM »
Peter:

The other problem with this comparison is that nobody can go back and edit Capra's film without permission, but a golf course which isn't successful will probably be modified to please someone ... if not its original designer.

Ted Turner might colorize it! :)

I don't know if I see someone's opinion of Tobacco Road changing with more plays; it strikes me as a love it or hate it type course (which is weird, because I'm not in either camp...).

Can one of our resident historians speak as to what the prevailing opinion of Oakland Hills was pre-RTJ's redo? I always wondered why he was brought in to monsterize the course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2010, 11:56:04 AM »
George,

I think he was brought in prior to the US Open to protect par...but I don't have a clue about the course before then.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2010, 12:16:11 PM »
Peter:

The other problem with this comparison is that nobody can go back and edit Capra's film without permission, but a golf course which isn't successful will probably be modified to please someone ... if not its original designer.

I think the real movie parallel has been missed. It goes as follows:

Imagine that the studio wants to reissue Wonderful Life into theaters. To draw a big, modern audience they decide they need to update the movie. They believe they must make significant changes. Maybe a couple of sex scenes with Donna Reed or maybe Ward Bond is killed off or maybe Jimmy Stewart does drugs in his desperate moments. Stuff like that. Or whatever.

And indeed those or other changes might draw a bigger, more modern audience to the film.

There are two problems.

First, it will be a much worse film.  

Second, the people that have seen and love the original of Wonderful Life who crticize the new version will be accused of being out of touch and hopelessly behind the times.

That's the cga - movie parallel.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2010, 12:52:59 PM »
Good one, Bob.

It would indeed be a worse film, except for the Donna Reed part...

Jim S - you must be one tough competitor. You're tenacious, i.e. I can't believe you're still hanging onto the 10 year contract idea!

Peter
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 12:57:28 PM by PPallotta »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2010, 01:21:32 PM »
In reading the early opinions expressed about Oakmont, it seems that the course design was accepted for what it was in terms of difficulty. The criticism was for how it was prepared for championship play, particularly the furrowed rake patterns in the bunkers.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2010, 01:51:28 PM »

Jim S - you must be one tough competitor. You're tenacious, i.e. I can't believe you're still hanging onto the 10 year contract idea!



I haven't built my course yet...

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2010, 10:49:16 PM »
The Oak Hill edits seem to be unpopular.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2010, 01:50:44 AM »

TPC Sawgrass is the one that stands out.... no course has been more controversial upon opening, at least in my lifetime, yet time (and some softening) seems to have been very beneficial to its reputation.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initially misunderstood courses that eventually became Classics?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2010, 06:04:57 AM »
In reading the early opinions expressed about Oakmont, it seems that the course design was accepted for what it was in terms of difficulty. The criticism was for how it was prepared for championship play, particularly the furrowed rake patterns in the bunkers.

At the beginning Oakmont was criticized (by a few locals) for not being up to champion standard, and as a result was made more difficult over a period of years. It was not a nationally renowned golf course in the early years. The course opened in 1903, but didn't host its first major championship until 1919.

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