News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

# 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« on: March 21, 2009, 10:27:16 AM »
"Hog's Back"
Par 5, 478 Red, 466 Green, 451 White

As you hole out on # 4 and walk up to the 5th tee, you can't help but remember the sharp definition presented by the deep flanking bunkers, raised green and sloped putting surface.  As you reach the 5th tee and gaze out toward the general direction of the hole you quickly realize that there is no definition to be found.  Instead, this vast expanse confronts you.  Where's the hole ?  Where do I aim on my drive ?  The golfer has been thrown yet another curve, more uncertainty.

On the scorecard, the hole appears to be a pushover.

But, as you stand on the tee, not certain of where to hit, another sense alerts you to a problem.  The wind is in your face.  The hole plays almost directly to the south.  Now, you not only don't know where to hit, and you don't know where the trouble is, but, you do know that a good breeze is in your face, a breeze that will accentuate any error off the tee.

Now that scorecard yardage appears deceptive.

Guided by a good caddy, member or fellow golfer familiar with the course, you're directed toward a reference point that you probably noticed as you transitioned from the 4th green to the 5th tee.... The Shinnecock clubhouse, which sit magnificently up on a ridge in the distance, directly in front of you as you gaze out toward the 5th hole.

Some instructions will direct the golfer to aim at the clubhouse.
Others will zero in on a chimney or flag.

The semi-blind nature of the tee hides the peril that lies ahead.

The hole is aptly named because the fairway in the DZ is akin to a spine or ridge, running north-south on the hole.  Tee shots hit marginally or off centerline will catch the flanks/slopes in the fairway and be directed further away from the fairway.

This creates more blindness as tee shots hit right flow toward a mini hollow preventing the golfer from seeing the green or approach area fronting the green.

Tee shots hit left face a far more dire consequence.
A deep bowl flanked by a large bunker awaits any drawn, pulled, hook or overcooked tee shot.  This bowl is deep.  Any golfer within the bowl is generally disoriented, needing to come forward to see where he has to aim and hoping he can remember the spot on the ground he chose, or, he'll have a caddy or playing companion fix the line, before he attemps his second shot up into the sky.

Because the deep bowl is so far from the green a long iron or wood is required, however, the bank to the bowl is steep, and any long club not properly hit risks hitting the bank, usually leaving the golfer with a longer approach into the green.  This gathering bowl probably runs from 220 to 260 off the tee.

The fairway configuration is interesting in that it begins to split at about 255, seperated by a long, thin diagonal bunker that's probably about 120 yards in length.

This bunker starts at the crest of the deep bowl left, extends to the end of the fairway right, and beyond.

It serves a wonderful purpose.
It reins in length.
Long balls hit dead straight will end up in that bunker.
Balls hit left, in the deep bowl or worse
Balls hit right, in the shallow hollow and rough right.

The fairway is generous, dimensionally, but, not practically/functionally.

A straight drive in the right direction is an important factor in scoring well on this hole.

If the golfer has driven well, he's still blind since the face of the long diagonal bunker usually blocks any view of the green which sits below the DZ.

This hole has another unique feature which HIGHLY favors the golfer familiar with the hole.  It has a right side "Turbo boost"

Many golfers walk forward to determine hole location.
Usually they sight the flag and pick the top of a tree in the backround that lines up with the flag, as their aiming marker.

Many golfers then hit their shot at the directional marker they've picked.
Most will fall short of the green.
Many experienced golfers with long shots into the green will try to hit a low draw to the right of the green.  There, the turbo boost will propel their ball forward and left, onto the green.

It's amazing to watch.
Shots that would normally end up 50 yards short of the green are now putting for eagle.
Shots that were hit perfectly, at the flag, soar up into the wind and come to rest short of the green, or worse, into the hollow or bunker to the left of the green, due to the right to left slope of the fairway approach, which is an extension of the general turbo boost feature.

So, the golfer in the ideal DZ has some choices to make.
Not only does he have to decide if he wants to fly it at the green, play it short of the green, play it short and right of the green, but, he has to factor in the dual combination of head winds and the turbo boost.

Those golfers in the deep left hollow have a dilema.
In addition to being totally blind, they usually can't use the turbo boost because they have to clear the top of the bowl with a more aerial shot, which in turn will be "eaten up" by the wind, provided they clear the top of the bowl.

Golfer to the right HAD it easier.
Before Sebonac, the right side of the hole in the approach area from about 100 yards out, had another spine and bunkers hidden in the rough.
I always advocated that the rough in this area should have been cut to fairway, such that second shots hit just a little too far right, instead of catching the turbo boost, would catch the right side of the spine and be directed to deeper rough and/or bunkers.

Unfortunately, Sebonac's property line was perilously close to the 5th hole.
Hence, NGLA installed a tall berm and bunkers along the right flank of the hole.  The berm serves to block the view of the buildings at Sebonac and the bunkers offer a penalty of varying degrees.  This is an area that probably needs a good deal of fine tuning.

If the golfer has executed a decent second shot, he finds himself in one of five areas.
Short of the green, left, right or center, on the green or in the flanking bunkers.  While going long is a possibility, it's unusual.

Since the fairway short of the green slopes from right to left, the golfer has a number of choices to make.  He can putt, chip or pitch, depending upon the distance from the hole and his comfort level.  The LIE is critical.
You can get some uncomfortable lies, and, when the greens are running firm and fast and the hole is cut in competitive positions, these seemingly simple shots can be quite dicey and costly.

At NGLA there's a seperate "art" for play around the greens.
It's an art borne of imagination, experience, mentoring or a combination of these factors.

It's not unusual to see golfers on the right side, hit their approach too hard or pull it, only to see the ball run across the green and be fed, down into the deep left flanking bunker.

Shots from the left greenside bunker become more difficult and fearsome as the hole location moves further and further back on the green, toward the perimeter.

The putting surface is fairly benign, with subtle breaks.
Generally, I'd say that the green runs from high back to lower front .

As the golfer stepped onto the tee, knowing that the yardage for a par 5 was relatively short, (as are all par 5's at NGLA) his hopes for birdie or eagle soared, but, any mishap along the way can result in a disappointing par, bogey or worse. 

I believe that the hole tends to lull golfers to sleep, that this hole, more than any others, can be a big disappointment, even if the golfer makes a par.

For tournament play, the hole is sometimes played as a par 4.

For most golfers I think it's a great par 5 because they can aspire to make a good score, and many times do, but, it can also crush their hopes if they're careless or hit a marginal or bad shot.

When the course is fast and firm, this hole humms, it's certainly not a ho-hum hole as the yardage would seem to indicate.

If someone could post an aerial and some ground pictures I'll try to describe what they present in terms of playing options.

Thanks 



Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 10:46:26 AM »
Great detail about the huge number of options and outcomes posed by what you accurately describe as a "benign" looking hole that has a raft of problems along the way.

In my one day at NGLA, I had two pars here and wasn't dissatisfied.  As you've said, it plays a lot longer than it looks, and you have to be pretty conservative in your approach given the firmness of the green.

TEPaul

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2009, 11:49:58 AM »
Patrick:

In my opinion, this hole is perhaps the one on that course that could probably stand the greatest in-depth discussion of any hole at NLGA about what-all it offers and how it plays throughout strategically.

But for starters, obviously you need some updating on this hole, because as of about two years ago it became a par 4 on the card!  ;)

Perhaps not for all but certainly for the good player where all these years it had always been a par 5 for all and was obviously designed as such.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2009, 12:51:31 PM »
TEPaul,

Obviously, you missed the 4th to the last paragraph.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2009, 01:14:44 PM »
Pat,thanks again for this.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 02:41:16 PM »
Here is an aerial:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »
The fifth hole at last!  Up until now, I was feeling kind of bummed out not playing today, but there was too much spring work to do around the house and lots of basketball on.  Work is over and I get to return to a favorite subject.....the National.   :D

The view from the tee is really hard to capture in pictures.  It's very difficult to get a good idea where to aim, at least for a first time player.


I got to visit the bowl on the left side that Patrick mentioned.  Here's a look back from the left side of the fairway toward the tee.  There is a perfect little slot between the bunkers.


Here's a look from the fairway towards the green.




As you near the green, the turbo boost opportunity that Patrick mentioned becomes more obvious.


It's even more apparent from behind the green. 


This was taken from the fairway on 7.


Finally, a look at the bunker on the left side of the green.  I was glad to avoid it.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2009, 03:13:12 PM »
"But, as you stand on the tee, not certain of where to hit, another sense alerts you to a problem.  The wind is in your face.  The hole plays almost directly to the south.  Now, you not only don't know where to hit, and you don't know where the trouble is, but, you do know that a good breeze is in your face, a breeze that will accentuate any error off the tee.

Now that scorecard yardage appears deceptive."

You know something?  In my early 40s, I've learned to ignore my senses. If I ever have the chance to play this wonderful golf course, I can assure all who have the slightest interest in my opinion that I will bash the ball into oblivion and not concern myself with the good breeze. 

It seems odd that one would suggest that another one wouldn't know where to hit nor know where the trouble is.  Isn't another one playing with a member and/or caddie?  One might think that a third one or a fourth one would provide some guidance as to where to aim and what to avoid.

That said, cool hole.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

TEPaul

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2009, 03:47:52 PM »
Ronald:

That tee shot almost no matter how long you are can be really complicated for all kinds of reasons that're pretty hard to see at first.

I think the hole would be much more interesting for the good and long player when it's played from no more than around 460 (because of what's towards the far end of the max LZ for players of real length). If played from the tips of near 480 the far end of that LZ interest such as carrying that mid fairway bunker or the top to the slope up to the right of it is sort of out of reach from the tips.

On the other hand, for the shorter player off the tee, like me, playing that hole as a par 5 from the tips isn't that bad a tee shot because it's hard for me to get way out there near that left bowl and the shorter part of the tee shot area has more room anyway. If you drive the ball at the right 2/3 of that mid fairway bunker you should be fine in any case unless you're quite long. But even if you get in it that's not so bad if you can hit a clean bunker shot.

It's too bad they couldn't get 40-50 more yards on that hole as a par 5 but that's impossible and as a par 4 they really should consider the appropriate tee length considering what-all is going on at the max LZ on that hole.

The hole is one of the most interesting amalgamations that way but with either par the club really needs to think about their most appropriate tee markers, in my opinion, or they can sort of screw up the hole's various potential strategies for either par and various levels of players, particularly with the tee shot.

For these reasons I would like to see them get as much fairway area to the right of that mid-fairway bunker as they possibly can.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 03:49:56 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 08:06:10 PM »


You know something?  In my early 40s, I've learned to ignore my senses. If I ever have the chance to play this wonderful golf course, I can assure all who have the slightest interest in my opinion that I will bash the ball into oblivion and not concern myself with the good breeze. 

Then you sir, are the ideal opponent  ;D


It seems odd that one would suggest that another one wouldn't know where to hit nor know where the trouble is.  Isn't another one playing with a member and/or caddie? 

Not necessarily.


One might think that a third one or a fourth one would provide some guidance as to where to aim and what to avoid.

If you're playing by yourself, against an opponent or with others equally unfamiliar, or, if your caddy has gone ahead, you'd be hard pressed to define the optimal line of play.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 08:07:26 PM »
John,

Thanks for the pictures, they help give the reader more perspective on how the hole looks and plays.

Post more if you have them.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2009, 09:53:28 PM »
John,

Thanks for the pictures, they help give the reader more perspective on how the hole looks and plays.

Post more if you have them.

Sorry, but that's all I have of the fifth hole.  I wish that I had 10x as many pics as I do, but didn't want to risk bothering the guys I was playing with. 

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2009, 01:42:14 AM »
Hog's Back is a far better hole as a long par 4 than as a short par 5, given today's equipment, IMO. I had hoped for at least a decade before it happened that it would be turned into a long par 4. I don't think
the 7th (St. Andrews), which Patrick will get to shortly, should ever be anything but a short par 5, however, for reasons that should be evident in its coming description.

Hog's Back is a marvelous driving hole with numerous risk/reward choices depending on wind direction. What one can do with one's second shot is dependent totally on fairway placement and on the slope of the lie on which the ball finally comes to rest. CBM realized that the lie attained could often be cruel, but he left an open run-up to the green as recompense. Interestingly, I only really came to understand this aspect after Hog's Back became a long par 4. One could recover from an unfortunate bounce off the drive on a short par 5. Not now !

Tom Doak in The Confidential Guide speculates on how difficult Hog's Back must have been as a driving hole in mid summer with baked fairways before the sprinkler system was put in during the late 1960's. It's tough enough of a drive right now, thank you very much !

TEPaul

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2009, 08:31:09 AM »
Jkinney:

It is of course interesting to me that the prototype for NGLA's Road Hole (#7) is TOC's #17 which has been a par 4 for a number of years now with apparently no damage to its reputation as a golf hole and excellent architecture (matter of fact its reputation has probably been enhanced by its reduction from a par 5 to a par 4). I am also mindful that the tip length of TOC's Road Hole and NGLA's Road Hole is virtually identical.

However, I'm not sure I would recommend that NGLA's Road Hole be reduced to a par 4 like TOC's Road Hole for the simple reason TOC does not have a hole like NGLA's #5 two holes before it which has recently been reduced from a par 5 to a par 4.

PS:
There is a recent thread entitled "More is less" that essentially discussed less tees for all players (or in my suggestion one set of tee markers for all players). I would offer NGLA's #5 as an example of a hole where that could work probably quite well).

PPS:
To make NGLA's #5 play ideally as a par 4 in the context of optionality (temptation) and strategically, I think the tip tees used would have to be ones that allowed really good long players at least a chance to take a really big drive down the left side and carry the far end of the left bowl or even the mid-fairway bunker. From the present tips (478) it seems that may be around 320-330 (probably in the air) and that's just too much. That's why I think it would play best as a par 4 for the very good player at around 460 or a bit less.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 08:37:50 AM by TEPaul »

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2009, 02:43:36 PM »
TEPaul - We'll talk more about #7 when Patrick gets there. As to varying the tee boxes on Hog's Back to tempt the really long hitters to carry the mid hole trouble, it seems to me that it is done easily by simply using the existing forward tee box. However, for the flat bellies, I don't see the percentage in trying it just to go from a 6 or 7 iron to a 9 or wedge. I suspect that someone like Tiger would hit his 2 iron stinger down the right side off the tee anyway and come into the hole with a 7 or so.

IMO we shouldn't be altering great holes for these guys anyhow. They should only be great tests for good amateurs. Hog's Back as a long 4 is now certainly that.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2009, 06:30:58 PM »
TEPaul & JKinney,

Too often, analyzing a hole is done in the sole context of the superior player, be it Professional or Amateur,  ignoring the vast majority of golfers who play the course.

# 5 remains a better hole as a par 5 rather than a par 4, for the great majority of golfers.

TEPaul

Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2009, 06:47:31 PM »
jkinney:

I'm not talking about altering #5 in any way even for the very good and long player. I'm only talking about what I think is the most strategically optimal tee space to play it from as a par 4 for the very good player.

Patrick:

I agree that for most golfers #5 is a good short par 5 or something of a half par which is always interesting to have on a routing or card.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2009, 10:43:20 PM »
jkinney:

I'm not talking about altering #5 in any way even for the very good and long player. I'm only talking about what I think is the most strategically optimal tee space to play it from as a par 4 for the very good player.

Patrick:

I agree that for most golfers #5 is a good short par 5 or something of a half par which is always interesting to have on a routing or card.

But we have that short 5 coming up now in "St. Andrews". Let's talk about that before we continue any debate as to turning "Hog's Back" into a long 4.

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 02:02:40 AM »
The "hog's back" hole at Old Mac is out-friggin standing as well.

Those familiar with the National who play Old Mac will not be disappointed, I can assure you.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 12:44:20 PM »
The "hog's back" hole at Old Mac is out-friggin standing as well.

Those familiar with the National who play Old Mac will not be disappointed, I can assure you.


I can't compare with NGLA's from personal experience, but Old Mac's is definitely stellar.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 5 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2010, 01:38:16 PM »
.............walking around here in the fog this morning in his pajamas, smoking a Marlboro Red, and mumbling something incoherent.

If you see him, tell him that Patrick has moved on to the 6th hole.