Course Length

[Sean_A]

I read the thread about altering the standard length of the scratch golfer with some interest.  One chap concluded that most scratch players hit it at least 260 yards - hinting that a guy playing in high level scratch events is likely giving away a fair chunk of yardage.  I am inclined to say he is correct.  A 250-260 drive is nothing these days for the flat bellies.  Anyway, in my last two games I played a course at 6500 yards and it seemed long to me - a guy who hits it 230-240.  THe other course I played was at 6700 yards and it too seemed long.  Neither course had a par 4 which I could even dream of hitting in one.  None of the par 5s were reachable.  Both courses are fairly flat.  Well, one course has a few severely downhill shots, but he has the equal measure in uphill shots so it is a wash.  Playing most of my golf in England I found this a bit too much and think  would have had more fun probably playing a combo of the tees we played and the set further up - especially for par 5s.  I struggled a bit on both days though I acknowledge that taking one's game on the road makes it difficult to la to handicap.  Even so, there didn't seem to be the mix of lengths which I find so much fun on the most older English courses. 

So, the question is, what length tees do folks like and how far do you hit tee shots? 

Ciao


 


 



 

[Brent Hutto]

Well so much depends on how firm the ground, both for gaining roll on tee shots and for being able to occasionally bounce a long approach shot onto the green. My driver shots travel about 200 yard total if I make poor contact and about 215-220 yards when I hit it solidly, along with the once-a-month miracle shot that somehow finishes 250 yards from the tee. But say 210 on average.

I have never really enjoyed a round at anything beyond 6,700 yards (Par 72). On a links or heathland course in the UK that length would be no problem but on a typical USA parkland layout it's too long. I recently played a course that was in that neighborhood (albeit on a day when a handful of tees were moved up one box to let the normal teeing ground heal) and it was great fun but I was overmatched.

On my home course which tends toward the too-wet I find the normal "white" 6,200 yard tees absolutely correct for my game. I do not particularly enjoy moving up to the 5,800 yard tees and the few time I've played back at the 6,500 yard tees it's a grind.

So I conclude that absent firm and fast conditions 6,200 is optimum and the limit is around 6,500. Probably add a couple hundred yards on a firm linksy turf or subtract a couple hundred when the fairways are plugging.

Even so, there didn't seem to be the mix of lengths which I find so much fun on the most older English courses. 

By the way, this last bit is very important. For me a 6,700 yard course that's a steady diet of 370-410 yard Par 4's is a slog and unless the Par 3's and Par 5's are truly awesome it will be a disappointing experience. OTOH, a 6,700 yard course can offer up some 340-350 yard holes offset by a couple of 420-430 yard monsters and I'll probably enjoy it. I just play the couple of long holes as really, really short Par 5's (for my game) and have at least one or two driver-iron holes per side enjoy and try to score on.

[Ryan Admussen]

I enjoy the 6200-6400 yard range, don't mind going shorter than that,  once in awhile I'll get up near 6600 or 6700 but not very often. My drives range anywhere from 220-250 sometimes higher if things are going good.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I reckon I hit the ball a similar distance to you.  My home course is 6800 of the whites and that's fine in dry conditions, a slog if wet.  I don't like to go much above 6700 on courses I don't know.

[Mark Woodger]

i was just having this conversation with a mate who is taking the game up and was telling him how important i think it is to play the right tees.

 Personally 6800 is going to be testing me to the max to play to my handicap (12) particularly if its wet and soggy. A 6600 course is what i consider a good test and likely the most fun. I am not fussed about drivable par 4s or 5s that are easy to reach in two, i am not a straight enough hitter to be attempting shots i might pull off 3 in 10 tries. Thats not to say i don't  .

i think i drive it 250yrds.

[Scott Warren]

I much prefer Deal off the 6400yd tees.

In summer I get oodles of roll and get to try to stop wedges and short irons on the firm, rolling greens.

In winter I get to hit lots of long irons and try to use the undulation to get the ball on the green.

Either way it's a hell of fun.

Anything over 6700yds I tend to find it can a bit of a drag, but there are exceptions.

I carry my driver about 200-205m (220-225yds). The total length varries massively based on the roll I get.

[Matthew Petersen]

Even so, there didn't seem to be the mix of lengths which I find so much fun on the most older English courses. 

By the way, this last bit is very important. For me a 6,700 yard course that's a steady diet of 370-410 yard Par 4's is a slog and unless the Par 3's and Par 5's are truly awesome it will be a disappointing experience. OTOH, a 6,700 yard course can offer up some 340-350 yard holes offset by a couple of 420-430 yard monsters and I'll probably enjoy it. I just play the couple of long holes as really, really short Par 5's (for my game) and have at least one or two driver-iron holes per side enjoy and try to score on.

Very much agreed. My parents live in a Sun City "retirement" community and there are four courses available there. They are all relatively modern, nice-looking courses. And all are utterly boring.

I doubt any of them are over 6,700 yards from the tips, but there is no diversity. Among the four courses there isn't one truly drive-able par 4. There are perhaps 3 of the 16 par 5s that can be reached in two and it doesn't seem to be by design. Meanwhile, every par 4 is somewhere between 420 and 380 yards.

It looks pretty but such boring golf!

As to the topic at hand, I hit driver 250-270 yards, generally. I generally play most courses from the back tees but not always. The longest course I can immediately recall playing is Southern Dunes in Maricopa, AZ which can be nearly 7,400 yards, if I recall. But that's a great example of a fast and firm course, as well as one with variety. There are a number of short and/or medium length par 4s. There are short par 3s and two very long ones. The par 5s are beasts and there are some long par 4s but they mix well and a good drive gets a lot of roll, as well.

[Alex Miller]

This is funny to me.

I'm a scratch golfer and I play with others all the time but it's never occurred to me how short the average player hits it. I don't mean to offend, just sharing my view.

I've done a few amateur tournies and played in high school and I can tell you that I am only slightly above average in terms of distance off the tee, and average in my irons compared to my competitors. I hit it about 250-260 in the air and about 275-280 total on average. My 3 iron goes 215.

I played Barona last week from the black tees (7200 yds I think) and thought it was perfect for me, the course was firm and fast. I do enjoy shorter courses too!

I think the distance used for course ratings for a scratch golfer should be at least 260 off the tee and 220 for the second shots. Hope this helps.  

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I hit it 220-230. My former club played to an overwatered 6600, which was a bit too long for us mortals.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the aspect of course length needs to be related to other factors rather than talk of total 6500 or 6200 being the optimums.

A par 69 course at 6000 yards is actually as long as 6700 yards par 72, on the same basis a 6300 yard par 72 and a 5600 yard par 69 are samey.

Equally if you look at the TOC is actually quite a long course, say 6900 yards from the normal medals and par 72, however it does not play as long because of the make up of just 2 short holes. A mixture 2 par 4 holes at 400 yards = 800 but a Par 5 of 520 and a short hole of 180 = 700 yards.

So a course that has 6x 3 6x 4 and 6x 5 holes can measure short in total but play quite long.

To me a course is long on the basis of how many Par 4 holes it has in excess of 425 yards and Par 3 holes in excess of 200 yards and is short on the basis of how many Par 5 holes it has under 500 yards and Par 4 holes under 325 yards.

I think for many a course that comes out +6 is really tough and probably fun golf comes out nearer evens.

[Michael Rossi]

I think the aspect of course length needs to be related to other factors rather than talk of total 6500 or 6200 being the optimums.

A par 69 course at 6000 yards is actually as long as 6700 yards par 72, on the same basis a 6300 yard par 72 and a 5600 yard par 69 are samey.

Equally if you look at the TOC is actually quite a long course, say 6900 yards from the normal medals and par 72, however it does not play as long because of the make up of just 2 short holes. A mixture 2 par 4 holes at 400 yards = 800 but a Par 5 of 520 and a short hole of 180 = 700 yards.

So a course that has 6x 3 6x 4 and 6x 5 holes can measure short in total but play quite long.

To me a course is long on the basis of how many Par 4 holes it has in excess of 425 yards and Par 3 holes in excess of 200 yards and is short on the basis of how many Par 5 holes it has under 500 yards and Par 4 holes under 325 yards.

I think for many a course that comes out +6 is really tough and probably fun golf comes out nearer evens.

Altitude also has to be considered for what plays long. 6500 at sea level is much different than it is at 700+m above.

[Greg Tallman]

I suppose my driver is anwhere from 260 to 280 depending on how the swing is after months of not playing.

Anything from 6500-7100 is fun.

Shorter and I find I lose interest unless there is a specific game like our red tee tournament a few years back where we played 36 holes from the ladies tees (about 4700). If you did not break par you had to pitch an extra $100 in the pot. I suggest anyone who is in charge of setting up their course for an event do the same. I know I would throw some curve balls with tee placements such as shortening the 440 yard 8th on The Ocean Course to about 280 and almost guarantee a similar scoring average.

Longer than 7100 gets a bit much with the long irons and hybrids for much of the day. Firestone South would be one of my least favorite courses on the planet while I would love to play a better player match play on the North.

[Tim Johnson]

Interesting comments and certainly honest, which is refreshing, on the lengths of your average drives. More often these days I hear guys bragging of how they hit 300+ off the tee. I usually ask what they play to and when they come back with double digit handicap, i say your short game must be horrific. 300 off the tee means plenty of 8's, 9's and wedges into greens which is much easier than hitting a 4 iron 180. I would probably average 240-250 on parkland and 270-280 on links.

My ideal length is the 6400-6500 yard range. I love a reachable par 4 and one of the par 5 should be reachable in 2, if both shots are very well played.

Adrian, I didnt realize the TOC played that long but I also probably didnt play it from the medals. Mind you, I played on a windless day and the balled rolled for a mile. I reached the fringe on 10 & 12 and overall I remember hitting alot of 9's and wedges into the greens.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Yes, I agree that par relative to yardage is a significant factor in this discussion.  I played Addington a few weeks back from the medal tees and thought the course was too long at about 6200 yards par 69.  However, in general, I really like short course which cheat the card by coming in at 70 or less par.  Its a style of design which is ignored these days because of a slavish adherence to par 72 6700/7100 yard arrangement.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

I can hit the ball 280-300 yards off the tee and I can be challenged by 6500 yard courses as easily as I can be challenged by 7500 yard courses depending on how they are designed. These days, not playing all that often, I prefer to play courses in the 6700 yard range, but when I get to play as often as I like and am really striking the ball well, I like courses as long as possible; I like to be challenged to the extreme.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian

Yes, I agree that par relative to yardage is a significant factor in this discussion.  I played Addington a few weeks back from the medal tees and thought the course was too long at about 6200 yards par 69.  However, in general, I really like short course which cheat the card by coming in at 70 or less par.  Its a style of design which is ignored these days because of a slavish adherence to par 72 6700/7100 yard arrangement.

Ciao

What's this? Sean Arble speaking of par as though it has relevance? No. I refuse to believe mine own eyes!

To be fair, looking at The Add, it has a SSS of 71 (+2), which I think is more accurate than the par given that the 4th, 8th, 13th and 15th all play to at least half a shot over par.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Yes, I agree that par relative to yardage is a significant factor in this discussion.  I played Addington a few weeks back from the medal tees and thought the course was too long at about 6200 yards par 69.  However, in general, I really like short course which cheat the card by coming in at 70 or less par.  Its a style of design which is ignored these days because of a slavish adherence to par 72 6700/7100 yard arrangement.

Ciao

Scott

I speak of par only in terms of how people can be misled by a small number and somehow have expectations fulfilled by 72.  Certainly teh yardage and par are relative - Addy is a great example of this.  However, that isn't to say I would use par as  measuring stick if I had a card in my hand.  Personally, I would go through each hole and come up with a score which I think is reasonable to achieve at least half the time and then add em' up.  That score would be my goal if I had a card in my hand - par is irrelevant. 

Ciao

What's this? Sean Arble speaking of par as though it has relevance? No. I refuse to believe mine own eyes!

To be fair, looking at The Add, it has a SSS of 71 (+2), which I think is more accurate than the par given that the 4th, 8th, 13th and 15th all play to at least half a shot over par.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

If I really bust it maybe I cross 240 yards -- prefer to play layouts that are just over 6,100 yards from the tip tees.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I played Strathpeffer on Sunday which was my first game of golf since September This course if you don't know it is quite hilly but has lots of short par 4's. Being that it was so long since I had played my game was not so good but I did have a blast playing it. It also helped that it took only 2 hours and 15 minutes for 18 holes.

I find longer courses are fine if you are playing something like but shorter courses are often more fun. If I had to be a member of one club it would probably be Kilspindie in East Lothian.

Jon

[Richard Choi]

Isn't the rule of thumb your 5 iron distance and multiply it by 36? That works out to be about 6800 yards for me and I find +/-300 yards to be ideal.

[Sean_A]

Isn't the rule of thumb your 5 iron distance and multiply it by 36? That works out to be about 6800 yards for me and I find +/-300 yards to be ideal.

Richard

Where does this 5 iron deal come from?  I have never heard of this "rule of thumb" before", but mine comes out at 6300 yards which is about right, though I like shorter courses.  Its a real eye opener as to how tough courses must have been 80 years ago.  I always think Tillie and Flynn courses must have been absolute ball busters. 

Ciao 

[Scott Warren]

Isn't the rule of thumb your 5 iron distance and multiply it by 36? That works out to be about 6800 yards for me and I find +/-300 yards to be ideal.

Wow. Mine comes in at 6300yds as well, which given the +/- 300yds bit tallies perfectly with what I said below, before I knew about this 5i formula. Impressive.

I much prefer Deal off the 6400yd tees... Anything over 6700yds I tend to find it can a bit of a drag, but there are exceptions.

[John Moore II]

Isn't the rule of thumb your 5 iron distance and multiply it by 36? That works out to be about 6800 yards for me and I find +/-300 yards to be ideal.

Mine would come out to a 7200 yard golf course. I can hit the ball a long way and fairly straight most of the time. But a course that long would get really old after a not too long period of time.