[Michael Blake]

You can hail all the Tommy Armour's, Watson's, Corey Pavin's you want but:

If Freddy plays fairly well, there are only a handful of guys who can compete with him on the Champions Tour.  He's younger, stronger, longer, and has the perfect easy going attitude for that tour.  

He plays well in PGA Tour event and 76 guys might finish higher than him.

Does anyone even watch that tour?  Even for the majors?

[Andy Hodson]

Michael,

There's little debate that Fred is one of a handful of very good players on the Senior Tour, and when he is on, very few can keep up with him. But, as been stated before, except for one tournament he has not run away with an event. So, my argument is, the idea that it is ''vastly inferior'' talent is just off-base.  He's not playing against club pros, by gosh.

The top 12 [charles swab pts. 2010] on the Senior Tour have, by rough estimate, 15 major championships on the Regular Tour.

The top 12[fedex pts. 2010] on teh Regular Tour have...4. Now I get the counter argument of length of career, etc.   But, if there were a Ryder Cup style competition, on a normal sized golf course [7100 yards, 2" rough], would there be an overwhelming [meaning one team was vastly superior] favorite if the teams were:

Seniors                                      Regular Tour
Couples                                                  Els
Langer                                                   Stricker
Lehman                                                 Dustin Johnson
Ronnie Black                                          Villegas
Watson                                                  Bill Haas [he makes it but not his dad?]
Cook                                                     Furyk
Pavin                                                    Ben Crane
ARmour                                               Kuchar
Sindelar                                                Allenby
Price                                                        Holmes
Mike Goodes                                           Mahan
Chen Su Liu[who?]                                Poulter

Who would you take?

[Brent Hutto]

The question isn't about career achievements. Jack Nicklaus vs. Tiger Woods, head to head, four rounds starting today. Who wins the match? Yet Tiger hasn't even come close to being better than Jack career-numbers-wise.

And it's not Top 12 vs. Top 12. It's the strength of the field right now in the tournament being played right now. That's not even in the ballpark. Once again, do you think that players turning 50 actually believe it's going to be harder to win a Senior Tour event than one on the regular Tour? Has there ever been a single example of a player who won multiple times his last year on the PGA Tour but couldn't the next season on the Senior Tour? Of course not.

[Jud_T]

I still won't watch senior golf

[Brent Hutto]

I still won't watch senior golf

I don't watch any golf except the Masters and a little bit of the British Open if it's on an interesting course. Golf is on TV at one of two possible times, Thursday/Friday when I'm at work and Saturday/Sunday where I'd rather play golf.

Plus the players all act like mentally defective emotional cripples with their fidgeting and repetitive twitches and endless procrastinating when it's their turn to hit. Except for the senior tour with their golf carts and cigars.

And the LPGA? Don't get me started on the LPGA with their non-existent short games and caddies lining them up on every shot. Yikes!

[Michael Huber]

I recall an interview with Fred Funk a few years back, just when he was turning 50.  Right after he turned 50, he went and played a month or two on the senior tour and kicked ass.  After one of the majors (in which he kicked ass), he seemed a bit dejected even though he won.  He kind of wistfully mentioned that he was happy with the win, but he thought he was going to go back and play against the big (and young) boys of the PGA tour.  That tells me all I need to know about a.) Fred Funk's competitiveness and b.) the level of intensity and competition on the Senior tour. 

[Garland Bayley]

Michael,

There's little debate that Fred is one of a handful of very good players on the Senior Tour, and when he is on, very few can keep up with him. But, as been stated before, except for one tournament he has not run away with an event. So, my argument is, the idea that it is ''vastly inferior'' talent is just off-base.  He's not playing against club pros, by gosh.

The top 12 [charles swab pts. 2010] on the Senior Tour have, by rough estimate, 15 major championships on the Regular Tour.

The top 12[fedex pts. 2010] on teh Regular Tour have...4. Now I get the counter argument of length of career, etc.   But, if there were a Ryder Cup style competition, on a normal sized golf course [7100 yards, 2" rough], would there be an overwhelming [meaning one team was vastly superior] favorite if the teams were:

Seniors                                      Regular Tour
Couples                                                  Els
Langer                                                   Stricker
Lehman                                                 Dustin Johnson
Ronnie Black                                          Villegas
Watson                                                  Bill Haas [he makes it but not his dad?]
Cook                                                     Furyk
Pavin                                                    Ben Crane
ARmour                                               Kuchar
Sindelar                                                Allenby
Price                                                        Holmes
Mike Goodes                                           Mahan
Chen Su Liu[who?]                                Poulter

Who would you take?

C'mon man! Tiger's got more than all the seniors combined! Plus, you can't even count to 5 correctly!

[Marty Bonnar]

Now I LOVE the Fredster,
but those shoes. Watched him a bit last night and couldn't help thinking he should be grunging on a skateboard or grinding his freebases on a triple-whammy or maybe poppin'a wheelie with his homies.
Apologies for the pathetic not very street-wise Scottish attempts at getting down with the kids, but give me a nice pair of sensible brogues anytime!
Actually, come to think of it, this is the guy speaking with a pair of Orange Eccos and a pair of 'Designer Collection' Footjoys in the cupboard. Hey Dude, maybe I'm a little more radical than I thought......Where's MY Car!!?!?!?!?
 
FBD.

[Andy Hodson]

Garland

Doesn't Tiger have 14? Isn't 14<15? And did I miss one on the regular tour (Els 3, Furyk 1)?

Again, my argument is not that the Senior Tour is better competition, its that its not VASTLY INFERIOR. And its not which tour has more and deeper talent, its that Freddie is not playing against chumps out there.

Brent,

That is why I put the counter argument about lenght of career, etc.

Again, I included it to point out that the competition on the Senior Tour is not VASTLY INFERIOR.

And, I might tke the money line on the Seniors in the hypothetical competition mentioned.

[George Pazin]

Andy, I think you'd have to define VASTLY INFERIOR.

For me, it's simple inspection: Freddie has been playing well for awhile now. It hasn't resulted in any regular Tour wins recently, but it has resulted in 3 wins and a 2nd in 4 starts on the Senior Tour. Sorry to say, when compared to the fields in regular Tour events, the competition is indeed VASTLY INFERIOR. They'd wax the floor with any of us, and 99.99% of all golfers, but when compared to that 0.01% that are on the regular Tour, sorry to say, you're wrong.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland

Doesn't Tiger have 14? Isn't 14<15? And did I miss one on the regular tour (Els 3, Furyk 1)?
...

My apologies! I got in a rush! I thought your total for the fogies was 12, and I gave Ben C one. Wrong Ben C.

Anyway, your thesis as George points out is so far out, I got careless.

[Garland Bayley]

Take the world top 10 and you have 24 majors amongst the PGA Tour pros. And they still have a chance to win more! The guys on the Senior Tour won't be adding to their total.

[Thomas McQuillan]

I think most people agree that the senior tour isn't as good as the regular tour, but which one would you rather watch: senior tour or nationwide tour?

[Sam Morrow]

I think most people agree that the senior tour isn't as good as the regular tour, but which one would you rather watch: senior tour or nationwide tour?

Nationwide is my favorite to watch by far.

[Andy Hodson]

My thesis is an anti-thesis; namely...the Senior Tour is not vastly inferior talent. Obviously inferior...that's hardly debatable. But VASTLY inferior?

The Southern Texas PGA is vastly inferior to the PGA Tour. The fifth flight in the Club Championship is vastly inferior to a D-1 college golf team.

Tom Watson, Tom Lehman, Corey Pavin, Tommy Armour III, et al. are not vastly inferior to anyone on the planet.

I stand by my, ummm, thesis.

[George Pazin]

Again, you need to define your terms.

When the same guy - even one of my favs - goes from zero wins to a 2nd and then 3 straight wins, I have a hard time concluding anything other than the competition is vastly inferior. My definition of vastly inferior would be having a tremendous influence on one's opportunity to win. I could probably come up with some numbers if my brain weren't dead right now. The fact that it occurs every year or two when a new guy turns 50 pretty much says it all to me.

How would Freddie fare against the Southern Texas PGA in 4 events? Hard to believe he'd do much better than 3 wins and a 2nd....

-----

As for Thomas McQuillan's question, I don't really watch either, other than if either is playing a course I'd like to see. Heck, that's pretty much my MO for the big boys, too, on either side of the pond. And that's a pretty damning indictment of pro golf these days, when someone like me isn't interested in watching if it's not a good venue (other than the majors).

[Pat Burke]

Let's be real, when Freddy plays well he is still competitive on the regular tour.  Wins are wins, so obviously things are different
on the senior tour.  Freddy is the "kid" on the senior tour.  Where else can you have great experience, anIf Freddy d be the "new" guy?

Length is a huge determining factor.  Fred is super long on the senior tour, just kinda long on the regular tour.  Way less rough, so length will be a much bigger advantage.  The greens are not as quick or firm, and most of the hole locations are a step or two easier. 

Freddy on his game should be competitive at Augusta, dealing with the speed of the greens will be the difference maker for him.

If Freddy played in any section events (multi round) I would be pretty comfortable betting he would win every one of them, even in the stronger sections. 

Saying it is vastly inferior IMO is just wrong.  Is the regular tour stronger? Of course.  But on the right course, a good number of the 50+ would still be able to keep their card playing a regular schedule if there were no senior tour.  Is that winning?  I guess not, but I've seen these guys play, and if there were no senior tour, the crafty old farts would garner a few wins

[Richard Hetzel]

For him, it's not getting to the green. IT is putting well once he is on it!

[Steve Lang]

  hey when freddy did finally win at the Shell Houston Open.. after many many tries.. was it against an inferior field?

no one says anything about 150 + trying to win every week at pga events vs half that number at no cut champions tour events..  as i talked with fuzzy on a walk between holes.. he said, you know, the money's out there.. someone has to go get it!

so a guy that hits it 320 can go get it a little easier than one that hits it 290 on any tour..

i prefer the champs.. because i grew up with them.. they golf their ball better

[archie_struthers]

 

how is Freddie making all these putts   

[Garland Bayley]

how is Freddie making all these putts   

He isn't! But, then neither is anyone else!
 

[Jason Topp]

I am sure all of the ideas mentioned are factors (although I think the competition is better than many give it credit for).  I think the biggest factor is that he is the greatest silly season player ever and in his mind the senior tour is silly season.  When interviewed during the last tournament he said he feels more relaxed. It will be interesting to see how he plays in the Senior US Open and the Senior Open.  I wouldn't be surprised if he does not do as well in those events.

[Andy Hodson]

So, Jason, according to those who are in  Garland's camp, if Freddie doesn't play well in those events, does that mean the competition suddenly got, dare I say, vastly better....

[Garland Bayley]

So, Jason, according to those who are in  Garland's camp, if Freddie doesn't play well in those events, does that mean the competition suddenly got, dare I say, vastly better....

No, it means Freddie is apt wilt under pressure. He is more likely to entertain the winner and keep him loose than (if you get my drift) than contend himself.

[Andy Hodson]

Garland,

I was going to write something pithy along the lines of "so if Freddie wins its because of crappy competition, and if he loses its because he choked", but that would only drag down the level of discussion.

So, in trying to get back to my point, I am still wondering how anyone can look at the top 12-15 on the Senior Tour's money/scoring average/Charles Swab list and say those on the PGA Tour are VASTLY SUPERIOR? And, I'll state again, I get the argument of respective depth of fields, etc.

Maybe, at this point, as on all threads of this nature, we just agree to disagree.

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