[Charlie Goerges]

Tim, no entry from me, but I am working on a list of favorite/most intriguing holes that I hope to use for a nice, in-depth discussion.

[Ed Oden]

I didn't even include a clubhouse, although it looks like Charlie put one in for me in the most logical spot.  In my mind's eye, I don't really picture a clubhouse, but rather something more along the lines of Ben's Porch or maybe the original pro shop at Friars Head.  I like understated places that say "this is a golf club, nothing more, nothing less".

For me, the finished product of the design isn't near as interesting as the decisions that went into arriving at that finished product.  I did an initial routing that I thought was pretty good strictly in terms of the quality of the individual holes.  But it was REALLY spread out over a huge chunk of the property.  Even though that was fine per the "no rules" rule of the contest, I figured that getting a 400+ acre tract of land to roam free around and pick the best holes is likely a once in a lifetime dream for most architects if it ever happens at all.  Since this was my first ever attempt at designing a course, I don't deserve such good fortune.  So I scrapped my original routing (other than a few core holes) and tried to design something in a much smaller area more like what I expect most architects are given to work with.  More than anything else, I just wanted to see how a design evolves when things aren't ideal.  It was definitely much harder.  I doubt that my design is any good.  But that's kind of beside the point.  I had fun putting the puzzle together.  At a minimum, I think I have a greater appreciation for the guys who do this for a living. 

Ed

[Tim Nugent]

Well Ed, sometimes the journey can be more satisfying than the desination.  Hopefully this exercise will help when Charlie gives a real-world site, chocked full of the typical types of restraints we usually see.
Also, "I think Charlie put one in in the most logical place"  highlights what can happen if you don't stipulate where all the ammenities go - someone else usually does it for you  - and you may not like the choice and be criticized for it.

[Charlie Goerges]

I've been working on a way to highlight some of the hard work and interesting ideas of the contestants. Every one of them has (as Tim mentioned) created some good golf holes. To showcase that I decided to come up with an "All-Star team" with each of the contestants being represented.

Now, just like a real all-star team, each contestant's "best" individidual hole may or may not be included, but I think all of them are good. Also just like an all-star team, the selections don't necessarily form a cohesive whole, but should represent some of the best at each geographic location on the map.

Obviously since there are only 13 contestants I needed some"filler" holes to complete the routing. Less thought went into selecting them, all I was trying to do was complete the routing. The filler holes are denoted by the different shades of green plus the black numbering.

Before I finish, let me say that I would prefer that the contestants NOT specifically identify themselves yet, but let the discussion commence.

Oh, and I WILL be doing an individual write-up and presentation on each hole with "ground-level" images taken from my hastily thrown-together 3D sketchup file from whence I took the image below.

[Alex Miller]

This is SO COOL!

Can't wait for what's next Charlie.


Is that a par 76? One par 3? I guess we weren't very good at one-shotters. 

[Garland Bayley]

You didn't even include my next LIDO competition hole! That's it, the engagement is off!

[Charlie Goerges]

You didn't even include my next LIDO competition hole! That's it, the engagement is off!

Yeah, you and all the other waffle-house waitresses!

[Jim Colton]

Yeah, very cool Charlie!  Nice job piecing it together into a routing.

I was very interested to see how the contestants used a couple of the very distinctive parts of the property, including

  - The deep gorge by the 11th hole (and the nearby esker)
  - The taco shell from EH's maligned Dell hole (I think 16 on your extra)
  - The bend in the creek and the kink by the 7th hole.  The first hole I drew was just like the 7th but going North with a similar double fairway.  I ultimately had to scrap it.
  - The spot where the 4th green is, the one that's just begging for a green site (I'm sure your 3-D will show this)
  - How the creek was utilized in general.

  I'm sure there are others, but those were the ones that stuck out for me.  It seems like the all-star entry did a pretty good job in making use of those features.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

Did you leave the bunkers off my hole?

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie,

Did you leave the bunkers off my hole?

Not on purpose, but I may not have noticed them in my rush to plow through getting all of the holes drawn in sketchup. I'll take a look or you can point them out to me.

[Guy Nicholson]

Some pretty sweet views from that back tee on 5! With a treeless site, it might be possible to see nearly every hole on the front nine.

[Steve Lang]

  CG, you really are a glutten for punishment..  

Just a note about the background.. i seem to remember this from last year.. where the topo features seem inverted or masked??

The allstars looks to be a very good start.. I'm not surprized that the NE quadrant has so many chosen ones..

Is it time to show things that can be discerned such as the following green routing with all the other routing lines?

[Ed Oden]

Charlie, very interesting.  My "All-Star" is among my LEAST favorite holes.  I'm not sure exactly why.  It probably has to do with the fact it was one of the last holes I designed and is clearly a transition hole which came with some compromises in order to make the routing work.  In fact it was one of the holes that spurred me to start the "importance of transition holes" thread a couple of weeks ago.  So, looking on the bright side, I am glad that I created a transition hole that you see some merit to beyond just bridging the gap between holes.  More likely, your selection is a sign that the rest of my design sucks!

Ed

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie, very interesting.  My "All-Star" is among my LEAST favorite holes.  I'm not sure exactly why.  It probably has to do with the fact it was one of the last holes I designed and is clearly a transition hole which came with some compromises in order to make the routing work.  In fact it was one of the holes that spurred me to start the "importance of transition holes" thread a couple of weeks ago.  So, looking on the bright side, I am glad that I created a transition hole that you see some merit to beyond just bridging the gap between holes.  More likely, your selection is a sign that the rest of my design sucks!

Ed

Maybe he needed a transition hole! And, yours was the best! If Charlie picked your worst hole for an All-Star, your whole design must rock and he simply had to fit the rest of us into your real estate.

[Charlie Goerges]

You bring up a good point Ed. That is I had to make compromises all over the place to get something coherent. I started out thinking I'd pick my favorite for each person, but given my apparent bias against par 3 holes and preference for the most severe parts of the property, that would have meant a bunch of holes over the same few stretches of land. By throwing an arbitrary limiting factor in there I was forced to explore more parts of the property and and look for interesting ideas in more places. The nice thing is: I found them! My guess is that in only about a third of the cases was a competitor's all-star hole also the one that I thought was his best overall hole.

That supports what Tim said about everyone doing a good job. I easily found 2-4 real favorites on each entry and was able to make selections from among those in nearly every case. And even in those cases where I couldn't use one of them, I found an intriguing hole to include in my "All-Stars" selection.

Also, everyone please bear in mind that I have no business truly selecting favorites for a contest like this because I don't really know s#!t about golf course design. (this is why I hire the best judges money can buy to do the real work and I just try to stoke the conversation a bit)

[Jim Colton]

Charlie,

  You raise a good point about the par 3's...Any chance you can do the spaghetti graph with just the par 3's?  That would be pretty cool.

[Ed Oden]

Charlie, very interesting.  My "All-Star" is among my LEAST favorite holes.  I'm not sure exactly why.  It probably has to do with the fact it was one of the last holes I designed and is clearly a transition hole which came with some compromises in order to make the routing work.  In fact it was one of the holes that spurred me to start the "importance of transition holes" thread a couple of weeks ago.  So, looking on the bright side, I am glad that I created a transition hole that you see some merit to beyond just bridging the gap between holes.  More likely, your selection is a sign that the rest of my design sucks!

Ed

Maybe he needed a transition hole! And, yours was the best! If Charlie picked your worst hole for an All-Star, your whole design must rock and he simply had to fit the rest of us into your real estate.

Garland, I am confident that the "rest of my design sucks" option is the better bet.

[Andy Gray]

CG, you really are a glutten for punishment..  

Just a note about the background.. i seem to remember this from last year.. where the topo features seem inverted or masked??

The allstars looks to be a very good start.. I'm not surprized that the NE quadrant has so many chosen ones..

Is it time to show things that can be discerned such as the following green routing with all the other routing lines?

Steve, I only found 35 holes that you highlighted on the dark green course... or am I missing something? Why don't you get the ball rolling? Are you looking for comparisons between the dark green routing with the others?

[Nick Campanelli]

CG, Is the "All-Star" routing your official submission? Haha

[Charlie Goerges]

Jim, here is the par 3 map:





BTW, is the site moving painfully, excruciatingly, horribly slow for anyone else, or is it just me?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I like the lollypops.
When are the results to be announced?
Cheers

[Steve Lang]

   I like the lolipops too and they sort of reflect CHarlie's original circles of interest..

Andy, I picked on the dark green routing first bceause there were 36 holes (you may have missed two painted with one stroke in box 2 from left, two down on edge of north pot hole?) from a central clubhouse and it seemed to align many holes along the valley and had many other contestant holes crossing its path..

[Alex Miller]

Looking at the chart above, I would be shocked if the winning entry is the one with the black, brown, or dark green clubhouse.  Those locations just seem to limit the number of starting and finishing holes available for use -- unless the layouts do not come back to the clubhouse at all.

Interesting to see this, especially since Dark Green is a 36 hole facility.

[Steve Lang]

  the dark green clubhouse could be a golfer's mecca..  no access but on foot..

[Garland Bayley]

I like the lollypops.
When are the results to be announced?
Cheers

I take it that this means you have passed final judgment.

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