[Matthew Essig]

Hole 8 - par 4
Back - 450
Middle - 360
Front - 290

The tee shot must either be layed up short of the bunker, or fit in the 30-yard fairway between the water and the bunker. The green is relatively flat, but the general tilt is towards the water.

[Garland Bayley]

Hole 6 - par 4
Back - 400
Middle - 360
Front - 290



The tee shot is a simple layup over a bunker and at the base of the hill. The approach is extremely difficult. It is a skyline green so you cannot see anything up on top of the hill. The green sits 25+ yards from the front edge of the hill, so only poorly hit approaches will come back down the hill. The green is protected back left by a bunker. A ridge down the middle of the green causes balls on the left-half to slope left, and on the right-half to slope right.

The pond makes no sense to me. It is not needed in any way to make the hole. It sits so high above the other ponds in the big depression, it seems to me it would have to be heavy clay to hold water. Why are you taking jobs creating courses in heavy clay? Do you have to support your aging parents?

[Matthew Essig]

It is there to keep people from driving the green. I shaved the bank to add some difficulty. It doesn't have to be shaved.

[Matthew Essig]

Hole 9 - par 4
Back - 500
Middle - 430
Front - 340

The tee shot is straight forward. Just make sure you don't get lazy because of the width and easiness as missing the fairway makes the approach extremely difficult. The green has 2 ripples dividing the green into left, middle, and right thirds.

[Jason Topp]

The first three holes remind me of the start at Sand Hills

[Matthew Essig]

The first three holes remind me of the start at Sand Hills

Is that good or bad?

[Garland Bayley]

It is there to keep people from driving the green. I shaved the bank to add some difficulty. It doesn't have to be shaved.

470 from the tips uphill at least 10 feet. Who's going to drive it? Who's even going to want to leave their ball in that depression if it's fairway?

[Garland Bayley]

The first three holes remind me of the start at Sand Hills

Is that good or bad?

That dog track? Last place you want to be compared to.




























 

[Garland Bayley]

(Least favorite hole)

Hole 7 - par 4
...

With this hole, one play and I never return to the course.

Put the green across the far left end of the pond with fairway running out wide around the pond end so I have a way around. That allows you to move the tee for the next hole well left to allow a wide fairway for a long way around the hole away from the pond. Never make your high handicappers feel that have to make a significant forced carry from a downhill lie.

[Alex Miller]

Matthew,

I admire your effort and appreciate you bumping this thread (I'd love another AAC if it happened!). I haven't seen all the holes broken down yet, but I think your design seems more penal than strategic. Some very difficult holes with no bail our or risk/reward. There is a call for execution of a difficult shot, but no alternative. I see some Pete Dye in this, but in some places it seems over the top (like hole 9, specifically the green). On the flip side, I like your 16th (I think) a lot!

How did you go about constructing your routing? For me, I looked for green sites and worked from there: finding the best golf holes and connecting them.

I'm excited to see the continued discussion and hear more of your commentary as you lead us through a tour.


Garland, thanks for the compliment.

[Garland Bayley]

...
How did you go about constructing your routing? For me, I looked for green sites and worked from there: finding the best golf holes and connecting them.
...

Ditto me. I recon that's how we both found and used the same hole.

[Alex Miller]

...
How did you go about constructing your routing? For me, I looked for green sites and worked from there: finding the best golf holes and connecting them.
...

Ditto me. I recon that's how we both found and used the same hole.

Good god, not this again...

[Matthew Essig]

It is there to keep people from driving the green. I shaved the bank to add some difficulty. It doesn't have to be shaved.

470 from the tips uphill at least 10 feet. Who's going to drive it? Who's even going to want to leave their ball in that depression if it's fairway?

I don't think we are on the same page.

[Matthew Essig]

(Least favorite hole)

Hole 7 - par 4
...

With this hole, one play and I never return to the course.

Put the green across the far left end of the pond with fairway running out wide around the pond end so I have a way around. That allows you to move the tee for the next hole well left to allow a wide fairway for a long way around the hole away from the pond. Never make your high handicappers feel that have to make a significant forced carry from a downhill lie.

That was the original plan, but then the tee box would be too far from the last green so that you weren't teeing over the last hole. I have an idea, but I am going to sleep on it and make changes tomorrow.

[Matthew Essig]

Matthew,

I admire your effort and appreciate you bumping this thread (I'd love another AAC if it happened!). I haven't seen all the holes broken down yet, but I think your design seems more penal than strategic. Some very difficult holes with no bail our or risk/reward. There is a call for execution of a difficult shot, but no alternative. I see some Pete Dye in this, but in some places it seems over the top (like hole 9, specifically the green). On the flip side, I like your 16th (I think) a lot!

How did you go about constructing your routing? For me, I looked for green sites and worked from there: finding the best golf holes and connecting them.

I'm excited to see the continued discussion and hear more of your commentary as you lead us through a tour.


Garland, thanks for the compliment.

Yes, I started out finding great green complexes. I think I had about 25, and I found ways to connect them into 36 holes. Problem was, the east course was tight, and just kinda boring architecturally, so I cut it out from this.

I would agree that it is slightly over the top, but after I make some of the changes tomorrow that Garland wants me to make, it won't be so much. As crazy as I sound, I kinda like the 9th green. The bailout is the green. It is 60 yards at it's widest tips in both directions, so there is plenty of room to aim to the middle of the green. Honestly, the 16th was a....connector.... I didn't think people would like that hole. But now it is starting to grow on me. 14-18 are some really awesome holes (IMO).

I have decided that when I am done with this, I am going to post what it would have looked like if I hadn't cut the east course. It may get a little confusing though, and only about half of the holes on the east course are good, but we will see what you guys think.

[Garland Bayley]

...
How did you go about constructing your routing? For me, I looked for green sites and worked from there: finding the best golf holes and connecting them.
...

Ditto me. I recon that's how we both found and used the same hole.

Good god, not this again...

Hey, notice that Daryn found the same green site too. He just didn't have the insight to make the killer par 4 that we did with it.
I now notice that green site was one of the 7 hot spot green sites that Charlie circled in his graphic of green sites. I had greens in all five of the hot spots in the area that my course covered. I really wanted to build a hole to one of the other two, but it just didn't fit in my "best" routing.

[Daryn_Soldan]

Not the first time it's been suggested that I lack insight   Garland, thanks for including my routing as one of your "preferred" examples. It's interesting looking at it now... there are definitely changes that I'd make - mostly using a "less is more" approach. Look at all those bunkers! I'd already eliminated quite a few on my final plan that was submitted. Looks like I easily could have taken out even more!

My approach to the early steps of routing may have differed a little bit from Garland and Alex. I didn't really go looking for green sites initially. I began by looking for features that I thought offered the most interest and then experimented with ways to play into, away from, over and around those features. That led to several clusters of holes that I felt best utilized the terrain. There was some connecting that had to happen from there to get an 18-hole course (hopefully its not obvious where that happened, a couple of these holes turned out as favorites of mine). However, most of my "connecting" was really "addition" by playing away from a feature or cluster of holes and then back to it using a two or three hole loop.

- Daryn

[Daryn_Soldan]

Matthew,

Nice job with putting together a routing and posting it on the internet for the world to see. That takes some guts and the feedback you receive from both professional and armchair architects can be very valuable. One of the most interesting things I heard during this summer's 5th Major tour with Tom Doak on his new course at Dismal River was his interest in feedback on the holes completed early in the construction process. His team's willingness to make changes mid-stream if necessary was impressive. Heard the same thing from him at Old McDonald. Feedback, if utilized, can almost always result in a higher quality end product.

As a one-time aspiring architect myself (now closer to failed aspiring architect) I encourage you to repeat this process as often as you can. Utilize the feedback you get to make appropriate edits but be sure not to lose the components that make each routing uniquely yours. I also encourage you to take parts of your routing, especially greens and surrounds (and the next hole's tees if they're close), and develop them in more detail. Look at green sketches and plans and find ways to communicate your ideas for course details in a graphic way that's both attractive and informative.

My 2 cents...

- Daryn

[Garland Bayley]

Hole 9 - par 4
Back - 500
Middle - 430
Front - 340

The tee shot is straight forward. Just make sure you don't get lazy because of the width and easiness as missing the fairway makes the approach extremely difficult. The green has a bowl in the front tongue, a bowl front left, and 2 ripples in the back, dividing the back portion of the green into left, middle, and right thirds.



Back nine is for tomorrow, but keep the critiquing going...........................Garland. Anyone else have an opinion?

The green borders the ponds. Can you even grow healthy green turf with that much water touching it? Won't the green always be too soft for interesting play? Will you be able to keep this green speed anywhere near the speed of the greens elsewhere on the course? It's a big green, so you will probably have vastly different stimp readings in different parts of the green. Do you really want that?

I guess you know I agree with Alex on this one. Like with #7, I would not return to play a course with this hole in it.
However, the "average" golfer might like ponds.

[Matthew Essig]

Hole 9 - par 4
Back - 500
Middle - 430
Front - 340

The tee shot is straight forward. Just make sure you don't get lazy because of the width and easiness as missing the fairway makes the approach extremely difficult. The green has a bowl in the front tongue, a bowl front left, and 2 ripples in the back, dividing the back portion of the green into left, middle, and right thirds.



Back nine is for tomorrow, but keep the critiquing going...........................Garland. Anyone else have an opinion?

The green borders the ponds. Can you even grow healthy green turf with that much water touching it? Won't the green always be too soft for interesting play? Will you be able to keep this green speed anywhere near the speed of the greens elsewhere on the course? It's a big green, so you will probably have vastly different stimp readings in different parts of the green. Do you really want that?

I guess you know I agree with Alex on this one. Like with #7, I would not return to play a course with this hole in it.
However, the "average" golfer might like ponds.

I am a huge fan of using railroad ties like Dye so the green would not be wet.

I am going to redo 7 because I agree it is bad, but the 9th would be a great hole in real life. You would tee to the top of the hill and look sown upon the massive green and its hazardous grave around the green. IMO, the average golfer would love the challenge; it is the RTJ sr theory.

[Garland Bayley]

I am a huge fan of using railroad ties like Dye so the green would not be wet.

I am going to redo 7 because I agree it is bad, but the 9th would be a great hole in real life. You would tee to the top of the hill and look sown upon the massive green and its hazardous grave around the green. IMO, the average golfer would love the challenge; it is the RTJ sr theory.

How long will the average golfer love the challenge after he gets more and more experience with 2nd golden age courses where he not only has the challenge of the approach, but also the challenge of the recovery from the missed approach as opposed to a watery grave?

[Matthew Essig]

I have redone 6-10. To see the new concepts, return back to the old hole-by-hole. It has been updated.

[Matthew Essig]

Hole 10 - par 5
Back - 670
Middle - 580
Front - 450

If the back tee is in use, this hole plays as a 3-shotter. Players may try to challenge the first fairway bunker and place the ball left of the centerline bunker in order to reach the green. If you bail out right, the third fairway bunker blocks your view of the rest of the hole. The green tilts from back right to front left.

[Garland Bayley]

Hole 10 - par 5
Back - 670
Middle - 580
Front - 450

If the back tee is in use, this hole plays as a 3-shotter. Players may try to challenge the first fairway bunker and place the ball left of the centerline bunker in order to reach the green. If you bail out right, the third fairway bunker blocks your view of the rest of the hole. The green tilts from back right to front left.

Looks to me that the right side of the fairway brings the 4th tee too much into the line of play for the second shot. Will there be drviding trees or other device for safety?
Hole is too long for my tastes.

[Matthew Essig]

Hole 10 - par 5
Back - 670
Middle - 580
Front - 450

If the back tee is in use, this hole plays as a 3-shotter. Players may try to challenge the first fairway bunker and place the ball left of the centerline bunker in order to reach the green. If you bail out right, the third fairway bunker blocks your view of the rest of the hole. The green tilts from back right to front left.

Looks to me that the right side of the fairway brings the 4th tee too much into the line of play for the second shot. Will there be drviding trees or other device for safety?
Hole is too long for my tastes.

I was thinking of building a hill, so that not only does the 4th tee have some protection, but the bunkers would be cut into the hill. This is why the third fairway bunker blocks your view of the rest of the hole if you bail out right off the tee.

It is only long from the back tee. No one ever said the back tee had to be on the back tee box.

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