[Matt_Ward]

Thom"s Elbow is well known in golf as SH's 14th hole.

It appears the folks at Links in their current spring issue don't know the 14th from the 12th.

In their "Golf's Greatest Walks" section they highlighted the 12th hole when the photo shown is the 14th.

Well, it least they got the course right .

Or maybe they were simply playing an April Fool's joke to see who might notice.

[TEPaul]

Actually when Flynn first began offering routing iterations for Shinnecock he did three nines and the present 14th was the first hole on one of those nines which makes perfect sense since its tee is right next to the clubhouse (actually immediately next to Charlie Thom's old house and shop).

I think those going to Shinnecock will be quite surprised to see that the buildings around the 14th tee are now gone.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Why the desire to get rid of the buildings ?

Provided an old-fashioned connection - guess the club considered it clutter.

[TEPaul]

"Why the desire to get rid of the buildings ?"

Matt:

I guess I would say because they weren't really being used, they weren't that well maintained; but the main reason may be that without those buildings around it the clubhouse stands out even more from some of those beautiful distant views of it up on the hill.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Interesting comment you mentioned that the 14th could have been SH's 1st hole.

Hard to understand how a major magazine could get wrong the 14th hole and thinking it is SH's 12th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Is it possible that the buildings were removed to allow for lengthening the 14th tee ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Is it possible that the buildings were removed to allow for lengthening the 14th tee ?"

Even though we have a very nice historical consulting relationship with Shinnecock they do not include us in all the decisiosns they consider and act on but I think the potential lengthening of #14 is not much of a consideration for the removal of those old buildings. As you or anyone else can clearly see there is a ton of room to go straigth back from the present back tee leaving those old buildings (which are no more) to the right.

However, and having said that, if they ever do decide to go way back with the 14th tee the fact that the buildings are no longer there, would, in my opinion, give them and even better angle on that hole and tee shot than if those buildings were there!

I hope you understand what I mean by all that,, Patricio, but with a 2% retention percentage and a 98% lack of retention, you very well may not understand what I'm trying to convey. BUT, as you know, you are always able to avail yourself of the expertise of your mentor's and master's knowledge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

There are two sets of buildings west of the 14th teeing area.
A smaller set, offset to the south and a larger set directly west.

In addition, there's the hedge and a large tree directly behind the 14th tee.

Removal of the hedge, tree and buildings would allow them to bring the 14th tee almost back to the practice putting green, probably in excess of 30-40 yards.

Hi-tech I&B now allow good to great players to hit an iron off that tee, just short of the narrowed neck.

I remember when it took a driver to get there, but then again, I'm older and much more experienced than you when it comes to playing Shinnecock.  Creating a back tee, which would require a longer club off the tee, isn't the worst idea, especially in light of the angle of attack.

Shinnecock remains one of the truely great courses in the world and it has the wonderful luxury of THE WIND.

Are you going to NGLA in the latter part of June ?   If not, why not ?

When you think of it, other than at Bandon, OR, I can't think of four better courses adjacent to one another.
Southampton, Shinnecock Hills, NGLA and Sebonack.  That's some combination.

What a great two or four days that would be at 36 a day.

Gene Greco,

Are you around on June 24-27 ?
How's my star pupil doing ?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:


Right off the bat you show yourself to be the golf course architecture analysis idiot that we all who really know you, know you to be.

There have never been any buildings to the west of the 14th tee at Shinnecock. Any buildings on that course have always been to the east of the 14th tees or to the south----southeast behind the tees.

Patrick, when you leave Shinnecock to go home do you have any idea if you need to travel south, north, east or west??

Probably not you are such a troglodytic, idiotic, Spongebob!

[TEPaul]

"Are you going to NGLA in the latter part of June ?   If not, why not ?"



No Patrick, I will not be at NGLA in the latter part of June. I will be at Monterey for up to ten days for the US Open and immediately following US Open Sunday I plan to be in Positano, Italy for a wedding.

But if I had to do none of that I would not be at NGLA or even in New York state because being in even the same state with you at the same time might have a seriously negative affect on my sublime golf architectural credibility!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You forget that it was my relatives who had a great sense of direction, leading to the discovery of America.
Your relatives subsequently followed, became "robber barons" and the rest is history.

Why don't you take a look at "Google Earth" and you'll discover two things.

# 1  That the world is round.
# 2  That there is a large building to the west of the 14th tee.  It runs from SE to NW.  The smaller building is directly south.
       If you wanted to be technical, you could say it's WSW, or SSW or in your case, WASP  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
You forget that it was my relatives who had a great sense of direction, leading to the discovery of America."


Well, Patrick, if your relatives, as you call them, had as poor a sense of direction as you do I guess the staple food of China and Japan would be pasta!  


BTW, no possible......ahhh, I'm sorry, as I was typing, Kyle Harris called me and we got on a different dimension entirely, and I fa...foo...fah....ah shucks....FORGOT what I was asaying.  

Our conversation was not as mundane as mine is with you-----we were actually talking about the prceeding apace to Sunlit UPLANDS of ultimate golf architecture understanding and the IDEAL presentation of it!

[Chip Gaskins]

I really do love it when you two argue! 

[TEPaul]

Chip;

In that case please consider the supplemental addition to the last post; it is positively Hegelian!

[Sean Leary]

Chip,

I agree.

I need to get these two to Prairie Dunes with me and hear them banter there for a weekend.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
You forget that it was my relatives who had a great sense of direction, leading to the discovery of America."


Well, Patrick, if your relatives, as you call them, had as poor a sense of direction as you do I guess the staple food of China and Japan would be pasta!  

Interestingly enough, a form of pasta is a staple in China.

BTW, no possible......ahhh, I'm sorry, as I was typing, Kyle Harris called me and we got on a different dimension entirely, and I fa...foo...fah....ah shucks....FORGOT what I was asaying.  

You were saying: " You know Pat, you're right, again, those buildings are to the west of the 14th tee.  It's amazing how often you're right and I'm wrong"

Our conversation was not as mundane as mine is with you-----we were actually talking about the prceeding apace to Sunlit UPLANDS of ultimate golf architecture understanding and the IDEAL presentation of it!

Speaking of "mundane", I knew a Great Dane years ago.  Not a dog mind you, but, a gorgeous blond stewardess who flew out of Copenhagen.
Unlike your conversation with Kyle, I never found her boring

[TEPaul]

"Speaking of "mundane", I knew a Great Dane years ago.  Not a dog mind you, but, a gorgeous blond stewardess who flew out of Copenhagen.
Unlike your conversation with Kyle, I never found her boring.  "


I met one of them one time years ago in Sweden. She wasn't a stewardess though; she was the ex-wife of one of the members of that amazing aristocratic Swedish family who had that family member who saved probably thousands of Jews from getting shipped off to the camps before the Germans finally caught him. What actually happened to him was one of the world's great mysteries coming out of WW2. I wish I could remember his name. I think a book was written about him.

Anyway I was just a callow yute of about 19 or 20 back around '63 and we spent the weekend on this family's remarkable farm somewhere way out in the country in Sweden. For some reason she, a statuesque Swedish beauty, taller than me, apparently felt it was her moral responsibility, or something like that, to teach me a thing or two and she sure did.

 

[JESII]

Isn't there some movie about a couple guys in the nursing home telling lies to each other all day...

Pat, how much money are you willing to put behind your assertion that there were buildings West of the 14th tee?

[JMEvensky]

 What actually happened to him was one of the world's great mysteries coming out of WW2. I wish I could remember his name. I think a book was written about him.

Raoul Wallenberg?

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

Thank you; that's the guy. That big tall statuesque Swedish beauty was an ex-Wallenberg. I think the Wallenbergs were a hugely prominent banking family or something like that. What I remember best about that weekend on that huge and magnificent Swedish farm of theirs was that everyone wore clogs and they were seriously into things like sauna baths.

Furthermore, even though I can't remember that much about the whole Raoul Wallenberg thing, given who he was and what he did during the war I would have to say if there were any true heroes in this world at that time that man was definitely right up there at the top of the hero list.

[JMEvensky]

TEP,happy to help.

I'm just glad I was able to answer in a reasonable time.I didn't want to join the "troglodytically slow" group.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't there some movie about a couple guys in the nursing home telling lies to each other all day...

Pat, how much money are you willing to put behind your assertion that there were buildings West of the 14th tee?

Whatever you deem appropriate !

[jkinney]

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I will report on what the grounds crew has accomplished over the winter. The woods in the triangle between 10,11,12 & 13 have been thinned out considerably, so they now look like the area between 14,15 & 16. The 11th tee has been lowered about 2 feet. The regular tee on 15 has been rebuilt and realigned into a more normal configuration.

As to the removal of the old buildings by the "Thom's Elbow" (14th) tee, that was done a couple of winters ago. Only Shinnecock House remains, where the Caretaker, Joe Sullivan, and his family live. All of 14 can now be seen from the Clubhouse. Remember that Thom's Elbow is one of Golf Magazine's 18 greatest holes in the world, and to be able to view it from the Clubhouse is a joy. There is now room to put another back tee on top of the hill behind the current one. I hope the Green Committee does so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

What was behind the lowering of the 11th tee ?  Was it that the tee was elevated not that long ago ?

How did they determine how much elevation they wanted to remove ?

[jkinney]

Patrick - Apparently Flynn originally had the tee at this lower level. IMO it makes the"world's shortest par 5" even more intimidating, as less of the green will be visible from the teeing ground and one's tee shot will come into the green at a slightly more shallow angle. As if the hole weren't hard enough !!!!

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