Are higher green speeds ...

[Patrick_Mucci]

The cause or catalyst for the yips ?

If green speeds were back to 6-8 would anyone have the yips ?

If green speeds were back to 6-8 would pronounced contour and sloping make a dramatic comeback.

AND, if green speeds were back to 6-8 with pronounced contour and especially slope, would drainage be less of an issue ?

[Gary Slatter]

1.  No, I have friends who have the yips on slow greens too 
2.  Yes, people would still yip it with greens 6-8
3.  Yes, contours and slopes could make a welcome return if green speeds were 6-8
4.  Surface drainage would improve on the contoured and sloped areas of the greens and this might allow cheaper construction costs

IMHO I love bermuda and paspalum greens 9-10 and others 11-12.  Our greens at Fairmont St Andrews got far too fast in the fall, however their design allowed play to continue (most of the time).

[jonathan_becker]

Patrick,

I've battled the yips before and for me it's almost always on slow greens.  Sometimes when I'm putting on slower surfaces a bomb will go off in my hands coming through the putt.  I can't putt when I have to crush or hit the ball.  In fact, I've had rounds in my life where I've hit 15 greens and shot over par.  It's a horrible feeling. 

Faster greens have always helped me because all I have to do is brush the putt to get it online.  To each his own i guess.  Maybe I'm in the minority on this one.

[Ken Fry]

Ben Hogan still had his issues on greens that would most certainly be called slow.

Ken

[Jon Wiggett]

Ben Hogan still had his issues on greens that would most certainly be called slow.

Ken

Ken,

Ben Hogan's putting problems only started after his car accident when he began to lose the sight in his one eye.

Pat,

the yips is not to do with missing short putts but rather it is to do with the fear of missing a short putt. If you miss short putts but don't care/fear it your just a bad putter

Green speeds (fast or slow) might only be said to cause them if they cause the player to doubt/worry about the putts.

Jon

[PCCraig]

Great putters will figure out how to put it in the hole in any situation. Only bad putters complain about the shape of the greens, or if they are too fast or slow.

[Richard Choi]

I had plenty of yips on Chambers Bay greens when it was running 4 or 5, so at least in my case, the answer is a resounding no.

[Tim Martin]

Pat-I`ve seen more people have yip problems on slower greens.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You know, before you ask four questions like you did on the initial post, you should check with me first, your original and primary mentor on all things to do with golf and architecture.

I think you probably know the answers to all four of those questions and therefore it's called into question why you would ask them on here other than to be able to argue with someone, anyone, or everyone which is evidently the only thing you want to do on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com or have ever wanted to do on this website!

Just ask me first privately, Patrick, and I will supply you with the answers you need. You know that; you've always known that----I am your mentor and the man who taught you everything you know about golf course architecture and related subjects.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I was watching some golfers putt on well contoured greens stimping at about 12 when it occured to me that the muscles and mind governing high speed putts seemed to exacerbate the yips, yanks, pushes, etc., etc..  especially on short putts.

I don't recall many golfers having a great deal of difficulting with the yips, yanks, etc., etc. when greens speeds were much slower.

On slow greens, the big muslces take over.

When hitting a 50' putt, being delicate isn't a virtue.

Even old films of the Masters, prior to the eradication of bermuda, show Palmer and others slamming 8 footers.
I never saw one example of a golfer with the yips on those bermuda greens

And, the more I thought about it, the more I never recalled my dad's peers suffering from the yips, yanks, etc., etc.. on those old slow greens.

Now, EVERYONE has the yips.

The greatest golfers in the world are using BELLY putters, LONG putters, putters with heads that look like old TV and Radar antenna's.

Why ?

The increased incidence of  the yips/yanks/spasms have to be related to green increased speeds.

NOBODY has the yips/yanks/spasms on 50 footers on greens that stimp at 8.

While I promised your dear old Mother that I'd look after and take care of you, I can see that I've done a very poor job this winter.
When you recently traveled to Key West to attend a wedding (was it a man and a woman, or some other combination ?) you probably drove I-95 and never bothered to stop by to:

1   Renew your prescriptions
2   Get reliable directions
3   Play golf
4   See Boca Rio
5   Pick up your monthly stipend
6   Get your car's 750,000 mile checkup
7   Return Deb's dress which you used for the mixed scotch tournament
8   Attend one of the many Florida "Ballets" with me
9   Let Coorshaw out for a walk
10 Say "hello"

I'm deeply disappointed that I missed you.
You've been a bad boy.
Now go to your room.
The one with all the padding and absence of sharp instruments, not the one with all the whips and chains that you so dearly love.

[jonathan_becker]

"The increased incidence of  the yips/yanks/spasms have to be related to green increased speeds."

Correct.  The first greens I learned to putt on were lightning fast.

[JMEvensky]

Now, EVERYONE has the yips.

The greatest golfers in the world are using BELLY putters, LONG putters, putters with heads that look like old TV and Radar antenna's.

Why ?

Assuming greatest golfers = PGA Tour players,your premise is off.No Tour player has the yips--not even close.The absolute worst putter on the PGA Tour is other-worldly great.

You don't know anyone who wouldn't eventually go broke putting them for money.

As to "why" some of them putt with toasters,it's because they believe that using them might make them putt better.Not because they believe it will cure the yips.

I'm assuming you already know these things.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMEvensky,

Are you sure that they haven't conceded that they can't putt with a normal putter, and thus, seek refuge with instruments better suited to churning butter, or picking up ICBM's 10 seconds after launch ?

I wonder, if blade or mallet putters were madated, how well some of those fellows would putt.

But, this thread was not confined to the PGA Tour, my reference to the equipment being used on the tour, was to cite that the greatest players in the world are having difficulty managing high speed greens with traditional equipment.

I'd love to see a belly putter or long putter employed on a 50 footer stimping at 8.

[JMEvensky]

JMEvensky,

Are you sure that they haven't conceded that they can't putt with a normal putter, and thus, seek refuge with instruments better suited to churning butter, or picking up ICBM's 10 seconds after launch ?

I wonder, if blade or mallet putters were madated, how well some of those fellows would putt.

But, this thread was not confined to the PGA Tour, my reference to the equipment being used on the tour, was to cite that the greatest players in the world are having difficulty managing high speed greens with traditional equipment.

I'd love to see a belly putter or long putter employed on a 50 footer stimping at 8.

I'll be kind and not give a green inked,word-for-word Muccian parsing of your original post.

"Can" they putt with a normal putter?Of course--better than everyone except some of their peers.In their world,one more 5-footer is worth a lot sometimes.So,some of them putt with toasters looking for that extra 5-footer.

I don't think you'd want to putt Carl Petterson,Scott McCarron,or any other long-putter user for money.From 50 feet,5 feet,or 500 feet at 8 or any other stimp reading you choose.

They do this shit for a living--they're better than people who don't.

[Thomas McQuillan]

The simple answer is yes. One of the main causes of golfers missing putts of any lenght is decelerating or slowing down during the stroke. If a green is quick, thoughts can enter the golfers mind during the stroke telling them to slow down. The put is then missed. Each time this happens the player gets more nervous and even more thoughts enter his mind. The only true cure for the yips is not to think during the stroke, just pick a line, pick the speed, then putt.

[David_Tepper]

My case of the yips and decision to switch to a belly putter had nothing to do with putting on fast greens.

[Jason Topp]

It would be interesting to see whether the yips are more common now than back when greens were slower.  

I have always thought slower greens were more likely to cause yips and that nearly all great players of yesteryear succumbed to the yips eventually.  (Vardon, Jones, Hogan, Snead, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc.)

Now, many older professionals putt as well as they ever did.  You see more creative grips, long putters and belly putters today but I believe that is because there used to be a stigma associated with doing anything creative.  I also think older pros have more successfully figured out ways to keep their careers alive despite fighting the yips.

I have always attributed the difference to the need for the use of wrists on slower greens to get sufficient power.  In addition, nothing points out flaws in the putting stroke on short putts than grain.

[David Lott]

Before intense watering, there were two speeds: slow and dead. That is ultimately the fate of every one of us.

[David_Madison]

If greens were slower, maybe fewer golfers would get the yips in the first place. But once you've got them, playing on slow greens won't cure them.

I often have the yips using a "normal" putter. But, I am as steady as I was as a teenager with a downhill, left-to-right breaking putt on a slick green. It's easy if all I have to do is get the putter face on the ball with a little blocking slide action. As soon as I actually have to hit the ball, it's ugly.

[Richard Choi]

Most yips involve short, makeable putts (~3 feet). At that distance, you are not really using any big muscle no matter how slow the green is so I don't think that theory make sense.

Perhaps with the fast greens, you can use small muscles for longer putts (~5 feet) so you just experience them more.

[John Moore II]

Fast greens don't make the 'yips' worse, exactly. They only make the outcome seem worse. You can yip the ball around on a slow green and maybe only 3 putt once of twice, 1 putt once or twice. But on super fast greens, those yipped 2 putts turn into 3 putts, and the 3 putts turn into 4-putt greens. Fast greens don't cause the problem, they just make it seem worse than it might seem on slow greens. I've known guys with the yips.They would have been poor putters on fast or slow greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard Choi,

Aren't Belly and Long putters a transferance, a reliance on the big muscles rather than the small muscles ?

David Tepper,

How do you know what caused your case of the yips ?

JMEvensky,

PGA Tour golfers are RESULTS oriented.

If the Belly and Long putters didn't work better for them, they wouldn't use them.

PGA Tour players don't bet on the come.

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

I know that putting on fast greens did not cause my case of the yips because I very rarely putted on fast greens when I contracted the dreaded disease.

My experience using a belly putter is that it is, in fact, a little harder to use on fast greens than on slow greens. I have found that controlling the speed of a putt on fast greens, especially a breaking putt, is a little tougher with a belly putter than with a regular putter. This is certainly the case on putts within 6' to 8' of the cup.

DT

[Steve Burrows]

Remember also that the method of putting from years ago was generally different.  On those slower greens, you can see the older guys making a quick pop at the ball, often employing a well-timed "flick" of the wrist.  Today's pendulum style of putting is almost specifically geared for fast, smooth greens, and would not be very effective getting any force behind the ball on the slower greens from 50 years ago.

I think Pat is right in saying that different muscles are used, which is probably a part of the modern conception of the yips, but again, as it was often a different style/method of putting back then, the comparison becomes apples to oranges.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

Have you tried looking at the hole or closing your eyes on relatively short putts.

I know several golfers who employ those methods quite successfully.

An interesting thing happened to me at the eye doctors.

My eye doctor is a golfer with putters, balls and cups in one of the rooms.
When he put those drops in my eyes I couldn't see/focus very well.
While waiting for the next test I started putting.
Lo and behold, my contact with the ball was better as was my stroke.
I attributed it to the lack of anticipation or anxiety associated with visualizing impacting the ball.
In other words, that extra effort/yip at impact was removed, since I couldn't see/judge impact, and my stroke was more pendulum like.

Try looking at the hole or closing your eyes over short putts.
It may take some getting used to in terms of the length and acceleration of the stroke, but, after some practice you might be surprised by the results.

Try it, what have you got to lose ?  You can always open your eyes.