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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« on: March 26, 2010, 06:59:44 AM »
From coast to coast, from Long Island to Yeamans Hall to the Valley Club of Montecito, SFGC, and up to Bandon, Jim's big paws are all over some of the finest/coolest courses in the United States. His interpretative work on Raynor and his 'style' greens at Yeamans is second to none and for the hundredth time, I'll write that I put those eighteen greens collectively as being in the top sets in the country, right there with Oakmont, PV, Prairie Dunes, Somerset Hills, Garden City, NGLA, Merion, etc. And of course, a new set of greens will (APPARENTLY) be elbowing its way onto the list on June 1st when Old Macdonald opens, again in no small part due to Jim's handiwork.

This is a two part Feature Interview because Jim's answers are detailed and thorough, just like his answers were in his June, 2002 one on this site. When Ben and I approach people to do Feature Interviews, there is always some trepidation in that we are left to hope that the person can articulate his thoughts in writing. Jim happens to be an excellent writer and has taken great time to share some stories with us. Here is one: 'One of the strangest days at Sebonack was the day Jack and I got into a discussion over grassing lines. It happened on the tenth hole in the fairway. I had marked out the fairway edges and Jack asked me to move the fairway line in about twenty feet closer to the center of the fairway. The reason I had it out so far was to give the golfer no sense of where the left edge of the fairway from the tee. So I moved it farther away from the centerline. I was hiding it behind a roll in the fairway but Jack didn’t see it that way. He wanted you to roll into the rough if slightly hit off line. Our debate went on for a few minutes until he finally grabbed me in a BEAR hug and tried to wrestle me to the ground. Everybody stood in disbelief. It was all in FUN and from that day forward I had a different kind of relationship with Jack. Respectful on my part but realizing that Jack had a sense of humor.'

As another example, give him credit for how he articulates SFGC's uniqueness and thus its allure: 'The first time I saw SFGC I was taken aback by the scale of the golf course. I had not seen bunkers as big on any other golf course and when I walked down the 10th hole my first thought was who ever designed this course wasn’t afraid to dot the landscape. I wanted to emulate this scale of bunkering on a future project but couldn’t imagine the cost. Then after talking with Bob Klinesteker the super at SFGC I soon realized the cost in today’s standard of bunker construction might not be feasible. I am guessing that it may cost upwards of 500 to 750 thousand to construct and fill up these bunkers with sand material. With over 115 bunkers the landscape is filled with beautiful sculptures that are disguised as hazards. After many return visits I began to understand the scale and how the bunkers were just a part of the reason SFGC is so good. Green slopes that play tricks on the eye especially greens like #16. If you pay close attention to the green surrounds you would think that the green slopes from back to front but shooting the slopes I found out that a lot of the greens are actually sloping the opposite direction. I didn’t catch it the first time and that goes for a lot of other greens on the property. I have never understood how someone could make instant judgments on a golf course after walking or playing one time. Most golf courses are more complicated than that and careful observations must be made before making bold statements about the ability of the golf course designer and or the playability of the golf course itself.'

As indicated above, peruse this Feature Interview and you will find there is lots to be gleaned from it. Part II will be posted next Friday, April 2nd and centers predominately on Old Macdonald and Jim's plans for the future as he is now out on his own.  Wallace Stegner once wrote about how an engineer showed up at every mining camp with ' the bright face of self-sufficiency' and that perfectly sums up the far ranging skill set that Jim has now demonstrated for nearly three :o decades.

Cheers,

Michael Taylor

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 07:38:23 AM »
Thanks for the interview, Ran.

Pup

Ian Andrew

Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 09:09:19 AM »
It don't know if it comes out through the interview, but what I've always admired most about Jim is his quest for knowledge. Many architects hit a comfortable point in their career and their quest to learn something new lessens with time. Jim is insatiable. Fortunately for people like me Jim is also willing to share what he has learnt. He’s fun to be around because he asks a lot of questions of you, wants to know what you know, and often gets you talking about unusual aspects or the minutia of a certain detail.  

I’ve been lucky enough to see Jim a few times, but my favourite was while he was building Old Macdonald. I got to ask a lot of questions and learnt some great lessons that made me a better architect.

There area couple of gems in this interview including the section about hiding the grassing lines. Between Jim and Bruce I have been lucky to spend multiple days learning some really important lessons that I appreciate a great deal. We all concentrate so hard on “the middle” when looking at architecture, but as Jim has taught me some of the most important decisions come at the very “edges” of what you do.

I look forward to the second installment.

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 10:25:06 AM »
Wonderful stuff! Great reading Jim's thoughts on YH's 1st green and his 5 courses he wished he designed.

Thanks to Ran and Jim for putting the first part together.
H.P.S.

Tim Liddy

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 11:13:13 AM »
Thanks, it is a great interview. Jim’s romantic (and very intelligent) approach to golf course architecture comes through very loudly and is very infectious. It reads as a love story as well as a discussion of golf course architecture. There is much to learn from it as well.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 11:48:00 AM »
Jim (and Ran) - thanks very much. An excellent interview; and a pleasure to read an expert who articulates/explains his ideas so well in print. Many things struck me (including the blessed lack of 'convergence' in the lines at TOC) -- but one idea in particular I had never thought of/realized before. In writing about Raynor, Jim notes that "When Macdonald was thinking up ideas, Raynor was busy figuring out how to implement those ideas."  What I'd never thought about was that design ideas needed implementing. I realized of course that people have to construct/build/expose in and on the land something that is first imagined on paper. But what I mean is, I had always assumed that architects (including Macdonald) would never even imagine or conceive of a design idea unless they simulatenously knew that it could be implemented and understood how it was to be done. In short, I had always assumed that inherent in the conception was the plan and process for implementation.  I find it very interesting that this isn't necessarily or always the case, i.e. that at least in the Macdonald-Raynor situation, CBM could be free to conceptualize an idea as imaginatively as he wanted partly because he understood that he didn't have to understand how to implement that idea -- i.e. because he had as great a faith in Raynor's ability to conceive and execute the implementation and he had in his own ability to conceptualize an idea.  I wonder how often this happened back then -- with designers and engineers not nearly as 'tied' as Macdonald and Raynor nor nearly as famous. I wonder also if this is a significant difference between some golden age architects and the modern ones, i.e. whether, in general, the modern ones more often than not do in fact only conceive what they understand how to implement.

Anyway - thanks again Jim.

Peter  
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:52:42 AM by PPallotta »

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 11:59:59 AM »
Jim-

If you're reading, have you ever thought about writing a book about your past experiences building and renovating golf courses, and your thoughts on existing courses? It would be a great read!
H.P.S.

Eric Smith

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 12:04:08 PM »
Jim-

If you're reading, have you ever thought about writing a book about your past experiences building and renovating golf courses, and your thoughts on existing courses? It would be a great read!

This would be a sweet cover for the book...


Bill_McBride

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 05:22:52 PM »
Jim-

If you're reading, have you ever thought about writing a book about your past experiences building and renovating golf courses, and your thoughts on existing courses? It would be a great read!

This would be a sweet cover for the book...



Holy shit, Batman, that's scarier than Hell Bunker!!   :o :o

Tim Bert

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 11:03:54 PM »

Part II will be posted next Friday, April 2nd and centers predominately on Old Macdonald and Jim's plans for the future as he is now out on his own. 

Cheers,

Jim - Good luck!  Can't wait to read part II.

Jud_T

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2010, 10:17:09 AM »
Great read! "Corridor Golf"! Sounds like a couple of pretty good threads to me.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Moore

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 10:28:23 AM »
This is one of the most interesting and deep interviews in recent memory. I love this -

"My goal was to start eliminating the lines. I started that process at Pacific Dunes. With the help of Ken Nice the superintendent we were able to mask those lines. I usually marked all of the fairway lines at Pacific Dunes with pin flags before seeding. I paid special attention to where the lines led you. I tried on almost every hole to mask that line. I used bunkers and bushes and hillocks and just about everything I could to hide the lines. Breaking up the corridor as I like to call it was my main focus."
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Rob Rigg

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 12:25:16 PM »
Jim's comment about "corridor golf" is so very true.

Looking fwd to part two - Jim's thoughts are honest and refreshing - great to read.

Thanks Ran and Jim.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 10:20:14 AM »
Ran,

This is an excellent interview, one of the finest I've seen on the site.  Very glad to have Jim participating and giving us his insights...great content indeed.

Thanks,

Kalen

Jim Colton

Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2010, 01:44:49 PM »
Great interview, Ran.  Impatiently waiting for Part II...

George Pazin

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 01:08:29 PM »
Terrific interview, one of the best I can recall. In particular, I love Jim's thoughts on why TOC works so well.

Also looking forward to part 2, thanks in advance to both of you.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Colton


JC Urbina

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2010, 03:40:06 PM »
Thanks to all who posted a comment. 

Ian, Tim,
people who are in the business and know how hard it is to create a golf course.

Pat,
 I have considered writing a book about how it's a golf course is built.  I think Bill Coore once said, that everyone thinks you just wave this magic wand and a golf course appears.

But if I told people how it was done, there would be no mystery. 

I am sure I left a few people out who I consider to be very talented and lucky to have worked together on a few projects.  To all of them thanks for your hard work.





Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2010, 11:56:15 PM »
Jim is one of the good guys in golf. I am pleased to have met him and spent some time getting to know him. Lets hope  the industry keeps attracting  men like Jim.

John Moore II

Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 12:07:17 AM »
Jim-In regards to the two new front bunkers on #18 at Pasatiempo, how difficult to you anticipate maintaining them to be? They seem to be quite steep and not knowing the rain patterns out there, might be prone to washing out, no? Was this perhaps why they were grassed over in the first place?
Thanks

JC Urbina

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2010, 11:41:24 PM »
John,

The bunkers in front of # 18 are the same slope as the bunkers in the swale in front of the 10th green.

  The bunkers on # 10  were restored about 5 years before the current bunkers you see on #18.  Once Dean ( the former super)  convinced me that he could keep sand in the bunkers in front of # 10 and he didn't have to constantly fix wash outs,  the bunkers on 18 were styled in the same fashion and slope.

Every year I would ask him about the bunkers on # 10 and # 15 in front of the green making sure he had no major wash outs.   Both sets of bunkers with the same slope.

 When we were restoring the bunkers we would always uncover the original sand buried under the soil. To the best of our knowledge the sand they used was probably beach sand trucked up from the shore.  It was  very granular and would not be the sand that most golfers would consider ideal bunker sand.  But it didn't cost $50 dollars a ton either.

If you saw how they drained the bunkers back in 1929 you wouldn't really worry about wash outs.  I have pictures where they simply cut out notches at the edge of the bunkers to let the water out. 

The expert craftsmanship you see on # 18 was part of  Kye Goalby, Will Smith and Tony Russell handy work.    If you get on the Pasatiempo web site you will see the work they also did on # 15.

Tim Nugent

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 12:09:29 PM »
Jim, I last played P just as things were starting - I believe a new back tee for #9?  Always wondered if guys would play it across the road for #2?  That would make foir a hellava hole!

Also, was there any discussion of losing the #1/9 divider trees for the #1/18 St A's look Mac designed?
Coasting is a downhill process

George_Bahto

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 06:20:29 PM »
I first met Jim in passing at a Tom’s Renaissance Cup in Michigan - held at the High Pointe/Black Forest then a few years later at a Ren Cup at Apache Stronghold Jim and I spent a fair amount of time together.

During the times spent during the design and construction of Old Macdonald I was virtually with Jim most on each of the days and evenings.

We are in contact with each other often, about both golf and hockey.

I consider him a very good friend.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

JC Urbina

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Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2010, 11:24:55 AM »
Tim,

A back tee is in place for # 9 at Pasatiempo.  This hole already plays longer then the scorecard shows.  This hole along with # 11 are  a real test because of the uphill nature of both holes. 

As far as  I know they still do not play # 2 from across the road.  We added a bunker on the players right about 290 off the tee.  This bunker addition was in the original 1931 photo and really captures the essence of Mackeenzie and Hunters second shot bunkers.  They are now in play for some on the drive. 

No discussion has been made on the elimination of the trees between # 1 and 9.  Although old age may soon be the final determination.

Some discussion although minor has been made concerning the alternate green on # 9.  It was located by where the current # 1 tee now sits.

If your back on the west coast you should stop in and see the work since you last visit.  I will be curious what you think.

John Moore II

Re: Feature Interview with Jim Urbina is now posted
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2010, 12:01:23 AM »
To bring up something that was said in this interview, I think, I saw a picture of Old Mac in Golf Digest the other day and it really brought to light what you mean about removing the lines from the course. (Hopefully that was in this interview) It was rightly hard to tell where the greens were in the pictures and I could not see any rough in the pictures. I was only able to spot the greens by looking hard for the changes in color. That was pretty interesting since most places I have seen have very defined lines of fairway, green and such. Very good graphic representation of what you were talking about.

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