[TEPaul]

Also, Tom MacWood, please refresh my memory since the ins and outs of this particular thread are so hard to follow-----what is the point of this on-going list of yours?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom Paul,

It's not Timaquan...Ross also designed a municipal course for the city of Jacksonville around 1924, which hosted the US Public Links tournament in 1930.

I'm not sure what happened to it over the years... perhaps others can shed some light.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
It's not Timaquan...Ross also designed a municipal course for the city of Jacksonville around 1924, which hosted the US Public Links tournament in 1930.
I'm not sure what happened to it over the years... perhaps others can shed some light."


Tom MacWood:

OK, thanks. Klein did not seem to cite it in his book that I can see. Any idea why? Did Ross cite it in any ads or career inventory list he ever did and if not why do you suppose that is? If he didn't why do you believe it was Ross?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It's tough to keep up with your adds, moves, deletes, and changes, but if your list is to have any basis for comparison to my original statement this is as close as I can get, with the caveat that I haven't given every remaining course on your list the "resort test", in the interest of time and sanity.


Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)


Anytime you'd like to discuss any of these courses in actual architectural detail, or reputation, or comparison with any other courses of the time, please just let me know.  

I've been waiting patiently.

As I said, it seems to me that California is the most likely contender.


Tom Paul,

I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville.  

[Tom MacWood]

Jacksonville Muni, featured in Lost Links (Brentwood).

[Tom MacWood]

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)

What courses have you disqualified, and why?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom Paul,

This from the December, 1924 Washington Post;




Tom MacWood,

We're getting redundant, don't you think?

The omitted courses are anything after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, which is generally acknowledged as the start of the Great Depression, and other courses here that we've discussed where I believe they were more in the resort category, such as Pasadena, Beaver Tail, Gulf Hills, Cleveland Heights, Belvedere etc.

You can freely disagree, but I've stated and documented my reasons why I feel that the comparison isn't valid, so I really don't want to argue the same points.

[Tom MacWood]

Why is Cleveland Hts. excluded?

[Mike Cirba]

In the interest of trying to make this thread perhaps more productive and educational, I thought perhaps this December 1924 listing of all courses in the south (almost all, even private clubs, were available for a fee to those who could afford to go south to vacation destinations during the winter) might provide some historical value.

[Tom MacWood]

Why is Cleveland Hts. excluded?

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville."


Tom MacWood:

You have? Haven't we heard that one before from you such as HH Barker designed Merion East or Willie Campbell designed Myopia or Robert White designed North Shore?

Can we see what the 'documented newspaper evidence' is so we can discuss it and consider what it might mean or is that too much to ask of you?  

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Interesting list you posted on #858. Too bad it didn't list who the archtiects were.

And I would reiterate MacWood's question---eg--what about Cleveland Heights? Could it be it wasn't public or could it be that this type of documentation really isn't all that historically accurate?

[Tom MacWood]

"Tom Paul,
I've found documented newspaper evidence that Ross designed the municipal course in Jacksonville."


Tom MacWood:

You have? Haven't we heard that one before from you such as HH Barker designed Merion East or Willie Campbell designed Myopia or Robert White designed North Shore?

Can we see what the 'documented newspaper evidence' is so we can discuss it and consider what it might mean or is that too much to ask of you?  

I think you may have mistakenly attributed the quote above to me, but whoever the source that person obviously knows something of Ross. You are confused.

[john_stiles]

One course by Ross or re-modeled by Ross was the  Ponce-de-Leon (modern name).  The Ponce is now NLE as of about 2003 and I am 51% sure that the  St Augustine Links  later became known as the  Ponce.  St Augustine Links was usually listed in the fixtures in the 1920s.

" Proceeding along the east coast from Jacksonville, where the new arrival may first limber up at the Florida Country Club, the first inviting stop is St. Augustine. No less than three courses beckon to the wayfarer in this ancient city. "

" He may try his skill on the old course of the St. Augustine Golf Club, in which case he will be treading one of the oldest golfing layouts in Dixie. If this isn't satisfactory, he may take a whirl at the St. Augustine Country, a comparatively new course and thoroughly interesting. In the event this doesn't prove altogether satisfactory, still another opportunity lies at hand. He can pit his skill against the opposition of a layout planned and built by Donald Ross, known as the St. Augustine Links. "   AG  November 1920

Supposing that you choose to proceed further south along the eastern route. You encounter first St. Augustine, where the St. Augustine Links is a real course. This was one of the first real creations in the state, following that stage where in early days, most Florida courses were just a place to hit a golf ball, and it is still a fine interesting test of golf. It has been the scene of a great many competitions by crack amateurs, professionals and leading women players, all of whom have found it a test worthy of their skill. It will be the scene of several interesting tournament events this winter. "  AG 1934

From early 2000 promo by the resort hotel then on the property...." The Ponce de Leon Golf Course first opened in 1916. Henry Flagler, Standard Oil tycoon, had commission renowned architect Donald Ross to design a premier course for he and his affluent friends when visiting St. Augustine. The course, as part of the prominent St. Augustine Country Club flourished for years. In 1957 the country club was made into a private owned resort due to the increase in the number of guests wanting to enjoy the facility.  "  

It was on east side of US 1.


Maybe more later.     Hope to find something better than above.  

[DMoriarty]

I don't know Jeff, and it doesnt matter to me to be honest.  

But again, I don't give a damn.   That is what is wrong with these distinctions and why I originally objected to the ever increasing limitations Mike wants to put on his original statement that got all this going.   After a while it is splitting irrelevant hairs, but I guess that is what he has to do to continue to try and make his claim make sense.  

I think we'd be better off if he would just forget about defending Cobbs-- I think Tom and I have long considered that battle long over-- and see where Tom's list takes us without bogging it down by claiming one hotel course is okay while another isn't.


Now David...I know you're often dour and humorless here, but you have to admit, this one is precious!  

You don't like lists, do you?

Then what the hell have you and MacWood just spent the last 20 pages trying to compile?!?!?  

I start a thread on Hugh Wilson's involvement with public golf all his life based on some new findings that Joe and I had in that regard, specifically about Juniata GC.   Tom MacWood takes the first swipe asking if his involvement in these courses besmirched his reputation.  

You then take a rebuttal statement of mine saying UNTIL the Depression, with the SUBSEQUENT creation of Bethpage, many observers felt that Cobb's Creek was the best public course in the country, and you and Tom MacWood decide to try and rip me a new one.

It didn't matter that I quoted news accounts from competing cities, quotes from former publiniks champions, articles stating that the course was "Famed" in freaking Waterloo, IA, or anything else...no evidence would suit you both.

Fine.

So, instead, and obviously very uncomfortable with your arguments, you and Tom then completely hijack the thread and spend the next several weeks COMPILING A FREAKING LIST!  

The list goes through various iterations, and corrections, simply because it wasn't based on any first-hand, or second-hand knowledge, but because it was being researched and written ON THE FLY, using 1950's travel guides, and other such nonsense.

Despite my clarifying the timelines about 500 times, you and Tom persist on adding courses built in the 1930s, simply because neither of you felt your list pre-Depression had any heft.

Then, Tom finds a bunch of courses built on millionaire housing developments, and onsite lodging, and hotels, and yachting slips at places like Beaver Tail and Pasadena and Gulf Hills and remarkably says those courses were public too, obviously trying to sweeten a losing hand.

Every day for weeks the list evolves.

Courses are added, courses are dropped.

Each day, the thread drops off the first page of GCA faster than a bloated calf dropped off a skyscraper due to zero interest among the participants here, only to be dutifully resurrected each morning by Tom MacWood with some new aerial of some course taken from 10,000 feet that we're supposed to see as relevant because it either has lots of bunkers or some name-dropped architect, along with yet another iteration of the list that's supposed to be actually making some point, but instead is like some Dale Griffith-ish monologue... a GCA version of the Filibuster.

And then, at the end of weeks of this, with absolutely no arrows left in your quiver and a list that's really just a plethora of different kind of courses across a meaningless extended timeframe for comparison that's much ado about nothing, you state that this would never have happened if I had simply stopped defending Cobb's Creek, and that you hate lists!  

Priceless.  You couldn't make this stuff up.  

Huh?

It is not my list.

Now how about you answer my question?  

[TEPaul]

"I think you may have mistakenly attributed the quote above to me, but whoever the source that person obviously knows something of Ross. You are confused."



Tom MacWood:

You are right and I am wrong about that and I was confused----I thought it was you who said that you had found some documented newspaper material that a Jacksonville course was Ross. But, in fact, it was not you who said that; it was Cirba.

Nevertheless, I would ask him the very same questions I asked you when I mistakenly thought it was you who made that remark, and why not? I have no reason to not put anyone on here through the very same queries or catechisms.

[TEPaul]

"Huh?

It is not my list.

Now how about you answer my question?"


What's your question? I don't care if you addressed your last post to Cirba, I am interested to know what your question is, and so I'm asking you. Hopefully, you don't have another of your hysterical problems with that TOO, and consequently start insulting me for wine or dregs or tea leaf affects to do with wine or dregs or whatever!    

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

The question was for Mike.   I have no interest in how you might answer it.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The question was for Mike.   I have no interest in how you might answer it."




I didn't really plan on answering it. I was just interested to know what the question was. Your response above is just so consistently and deliciously petty; not an altogether bad thing to keep exposing on here, for sure.

Moriarty, at this point, I really don't even know who your worst nightmare is on here---me---or YOU!   

[Mike Cirba]

David,

It isn't me, but Golf Digest who called Industry Hills a public (not a resort) course around 1980, and I was merely explaining what I thought might be their reasoning.  

Out of 50 courses listed, I questioned Edgewood Tahoe, but could see their point around IH, simply because it was funded with municipal monies while the hotel was from different private funding and the fact that it was three years until the hotel opened (after the course was open for play and during the time GD put together their list, that all seems very reasonable).

In the case of Edgewood, they had just hosted the Publinks in 1980, so I think that started to blur the lines between resorts and true public courses.

To your specific question, if Pebble Beach had been built with municipal funds, and a private hotel was being subsequently built on the property, I could see someone justifiably calling it a municipal public golf course not a resort.

Tom MacWood,

Wow, Cleveland Heights is a stretch, a place where money was no object in building the clubhouse and where a private individual essentially created a resort community that didn't exist prior around the golf course.   However, I don't see any hotel or temp lodging so perhaps it should be included.

I have some more thoughts on Florida, and other vacation destinations, based on the list I posted last night that shows almost all of them, public and private, available for play at a fee, but that will have to wait til later.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Wow, Cleveland Heights is a stretch, a place where money was no object in building the clubhouse and where a private individual essentially created a resort community that didn't exist prior around the golf course.   However, I don't see any hotel or temp lodging so perhaps it should be included.

I have some more thoughts on Florida, and other vacation destinations, based on the list I posted last night that shows almost all of them, public and private, available for play at a fee, but that will have to wait til later.

I'm sure your thoughts on Florida will be fascinating. I can tell you why Cleveland Heights, Opa Locka, Sharp Park and a number of the others are excluded from your list. They were all superior to Cobbs Creek. Like I said earlier in the thread Cobbs Creek would come in some where in the middle of the pack of my list. If you can't beat'em exclude'em.

[Tom MacWood]

I've added Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Sharp excludes itself, opening in 1931.

Millionaire communities were not public courses in any real sense Tom, and I would think a student of history would find that self-evident.

If every course in florida was open to the vacationing golfer, how many of them would you call public courses?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Btw, your continued use of courses after the depression shows your lack of confidence in its quality to support your position.

The resort communities populated by the second-home yachting set just shows desperation.

[Tom MacWood]

Was Sharp Park constructed as part of a public works program?

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