Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[TEPaul]

"This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning."

Tom MacWood:

If you're offering that blurb and Daniel Wexler's Missing Links description of Audley Clarke's Beaver Trail as evidence that the course was a public course in the same sense that Cobbs Creek, for instance, was a public course, you sure don't know much about Jamestown, R.I. Maybe you should reread Dan Wexler's account of who he said the course was actually opened to.  

As I've said many times on here you are a very good researcher of all kinds of old material but unfortunately you're a very bad analyst of the material you find and what it actually means. I suspect that might be because you have almost no understanding of a whole lot of that world back then. It's one thing to just find all kinds of extraneous old material but to interpret what it means you have to first understand the historical context back then to put it into. Obviously you don't even though I would never expect you to admit that.
 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

You'd have us believe that you selected Emmett's 1908 Salisbury course for your list of greatest public golf courses through 1936, even though;

1) It became the private Cherry Valley by 1918
2) It was evidently  so accomplished architecturally that it was completely redesigned by Emmett for the CV club before 1927.

You'd have us believe that you were talking about that one even though the subsequent Salisbury CC four-course complex that was created by Emmett in 1916 and beyond included today's well-regarded Eisenhower Park Red course which hosted the 1926 PGA Championship, and whose now defunct #1 course hosted the 1925 US Publinks.

You thought that the Salisbury course on Long Island that hosted the 1925 US Publinks was the same one built by Emmett in 1908, and when I showed you your error, rather than admit that you don't know what you're talking about, you tell us this whopper.   THAT is the only reason your list included the erroneous 1908 date from the get-go.

I'm sure you're off now scavenging for some 1908 article declaring that the original course was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that fact it was completely re-designed before 1927 for the private Cherry Valley club tells us clearly that would be incorrect.

There is no point discussing any of this with a man who is not only a poseur, with little actual knowledge of his subject, but who is also now clearly intellectually dishonest.

Mike
Salisbury was not a private course turned public. It was from its inception a public course, and by all accounts a nationally well respected one. It hosted the 1913 Metropolitan Open. The fact that it later became private club has no bearing on this discussion.

You claimed Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public golf course built prior to 1936, and Salisbury Links is certainly a worthy challenger.

[Tom MacWood]

"This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning."

Tom MacWood:

If you're offering that blurb and Daniel Wexler's Missing Links description of Audley Clarke's Beaver Trail as evidence that the course was a public course in the same sense that Cobbs Creek, for instance, was a public course, you sure don't know much about Jamestown, R.I. Maybe you should reread Dan Wexler's account of who he said the course was actually opened to.  

As I've said many times on here you are a very good researcher of all kinds of old material but unfortunately you're a very bad analyst of the material you find and what it actually means. I suspect that might be because you have almost no understanding of a whole lot of that world back then. It's one thing to just find all kinds of extraneous old material but to interpret what it means you have to first understand the historical context back then to put it into. Obviously you don't even though I would never expect you to admit that.
 

TEP
Public courses are not your forte. Daily fee courses were found in all economic strata (see my list).

Was it not a daily fee public golf course?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Public courses are not your forte. Daily fee courses were found in all economic strata (see my list)."



Tom MacWood:

Jamestown, Rhode Island, econonmic strata and all is both a whole lot more MY forte than it is yours, that's for damned sure! 

"(see my list)"  SEE your list? YOUR LIST??? THAT (YOUR list) is one of the biggest jokes and trivialities that has ever seen the light of day on this website!!   

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?"


Yes it was, but the question is for whom? 

[Tom MacWood]

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an aerial of Watson's Belvedere.

[Tom MacWood]

This is an article entitled New Ideas in Golf Course Architecture on the new Salisbury Links (Garden City). The article was written by Walter Travis, Country Life (America) 2/1908.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Nice try with the quote from Daniel. Do you actually believe that I am unaware of what he wrote? For certain you show that you read a pre-conceived wrong conclusion into it.

The article that Daniel refers to states that the golf course would "Be open to all summer cottagers and summer hotel guests coming to the island..."

Tell me, where in the phrase "summer cottage and hotel guests" do you read PUBLIC? Doesn't this more aptly describe RESORT? Yes, the original idea that Audley Clarke had was to create a RESORT AREA that would attract people from all over to Jamestown. That is why he is quoted as stating, "I have but one desire and that is to put Jamestowne on the map..."

Your list does NOT include resort courses as being public access. If that was the case, how could you have left out PEBBLE BEACH and PINEHURST and HOMESTEAD and many others of this type that are known to all?

Tom, you are trying to make Beavertail out to be something that it wasn't... a public access course. The locals could not and would not play the course, unless they were members of the Beavertail Golf Club, until Clarke died and bequeathed the farm and golf course to the town. That is why DANIEL HIMSELF concluded by stating, "It as Clarke's ultimate plan to bequeath both the farm and golf course upon his death..."

By the way, instead of using Daniel's drawing which only approximates the course here is an aerial of the course from 1928/29:



This is the "Clubhouse" of the Beavertail Golf Club (the front parlor of Clarke's house):



And for the fun of it, here is the greenkeeper's cottage:

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
Although your interpretation is an interesting one I don't agree with it.

Beavertail was not a resort. At one time Clarke considered building a hotel, but that idea never materialized.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a schematic of Salisbury Links circa 1907. It appears #10 and #8 shared a double green. The course was 6200 yards at the time it converted to Cherry Valley.

[TEPaul]

Phil:


Your interpretation (and Dan Wexler's) of Beavertail and Jamestown, RI is entirely correct even though Tom MacWood does not agree with it. He apparently doesn't agree with it because, yet again, he has failed and is failing to put many of these examples into their proper historic context. He probably thinks towns like Jamestown or Newport (across the water) were just like any other town up or down the East Coast! 

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
Was Beaver Tail a daily fee golf course?"


Yes it was, but the question is for whom? 

TEP
I don't find it surprising that you two would agree to disagree with me, but it is a little surprising you would contradict yourself in a matter of a few hours.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I don't find it surprising that you two would agree to disagree with me, but it is a little surprising you would contradict yourself in a matter of a few hours."



Do you mean you two (Phil and I) or me too?  

There is no contradiction in what I said unless of course you think Jamestown and Beavertail was available to any golfer in the same sense a Cobbs Creek was.  There is the little matter of the type of people they were trying to draw there and for what purpose that involved another small matter in the equation that could loosely be identified as "money" but that may not be a concept, historical or otherwise, you're familiar or understand with and within the context of that time and many of those places. If one is going to be a good historian they first pretty much need to understand the "ethos" of certain times and certain places and in that vein with your interest in the history of golf architecture I just don't believe you remotely understand that particular but very necessary aspect. And it shows constantly on here in many to most of the things you say and the endless misinterpretations you make.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Forrest Gump's mother was right... and I'm not talking about chocolate.

That Clarke never built a hotel does not mean that the "public" who were allowed to play it did not have a REQUIREMENT that would enable them to. In this case they HAD to be either a "SUMMER COTTAGER" or a "SUMMER HOTEL GUEST." This did NOT include the local residents who were only able to play if they JOINED AS MEMBERS of the PRIVATE BEAVERTAIL GOLF CLUB!

Clarke most definitely viewed his course as a private golf club which allowed RESORT style play for those "GUESTS" who were TEMPORARY RESIDENTS.

[JC Jones]

Tom,

Belvedere was not public when it opened.  My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.

This is from the 1926 Golf Course Guide, and it continued to be listed that way through the last Guide in 1931. It was a daily fee course in Fifties too.

Tom,

This is apparently not the first time the Golf Course Guide has been incorrect about dates.  The Belvedere Golf Club was formed in 1925 and the course was open for play in 1927.  The club's own history states the club was formed as a private golf club.  The history does not pin point the exact date they began allowing for daily fee but it was sometime between 1927 and 1965(ish).  The history of the club states that there were some financial difficulties around WW2 so, perhaps, that is when it started.  I'll ask when I am there tomorrow if someone knows for sure.

[Tom MacWood]

The golf course guide says the club was established in 1925, and it was open to daily fees from the start.

I suspect a lot of these courses were semi-private. They were open to the public, but they also had 'members' who paid annual dues and they had officers so forth. Clubs were also formed within public courses, like at St. Andrews. The Midland Club at Salisbury Links is a good example, there were clubs within Van Cortland Park and Franklin Park too. For the purpose of this thread I'm considering all daily fee courses (except those that were private and then converted to public or those that were dedicated resort courses).

[Phil_the_Author]

For what it is worth, I have found the Golf Course Guide to be less than factually reliable in every aspect when seeking information about specific courses. One year they will give one date for establishment and then the next a different one. Yardages are quite often ioncorrect. Most often the information has not been updated as it is an advertisement for the clubs listed and they provide the information. If they send in the check and don't list any changes despite the course having been redesigned then the old information is what is published...

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
Good point, I've found mistakes from time to time too, which is why it always good to look for other sources to confirm.

[Mike Cirba]

bump

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a good article on Erskine Park. The name sake was president of the Studebaker automobile company, and he donated the land. Albert Lasker, who built the famous Mill Road Farm course on his estate, was present at the opening. He had a close relationship with George O'Neil, the golf architect.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:


There is pretty obviously a very large sub-story in what you mentioned on Post #542----eg there were in the beginning a few courses over here that tried to operate on the basic model of St. Andrews which has long had and still has a number of "clubs" that operate independently with and on the same course!

To me the real sub-story to that involves an historic and perhaps cultural reality over there on old courses like St Andrews, particularly its land, that basically does not and never really did exist in this country.

That would of course be what is known over there as "common land." That idea and reality never really existed over here. The closest thing to it, perhaps, were city, state and eventually federal parks.

The entire idea and reality of the American federal park system is quite amazing and is so well explained and articulated by the terrific historic presenter, Ken Burns, in one of his latest works on the American federal park system. It was basically an American invention and it doesn't really exist like we have it anywhere else in the world.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Since you're including all high-end, exclusive resort community courses, you need to add that public course stalwart serving the oft-neglected community of the Hamptons, and add the origninal Montauk Downs course, built in 1927.

Did Newport CC offer some public play for vacationing golfers who drove their yachts into the bay, as well?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I consider Montauk a resort. I'm not considering private clubs that offer reciprocal play.

I don't know what you have against wealth or what you perceive to be wealth, but I'm not going discriminate against a daily fee course because it may be in an affluent community (or what you perceive is an affluent area). A daily fee golf course is a daily fee golf course.