Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[Mike Cirba]

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[John Moore II]

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[Mike Cirba]

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[David Stamm]

Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......

[Mike Cirba]

Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......

David,

Your sarcasm is humorous and appreciated, but I have two questions. 

1) When did Fox Hills open?

2) How do we know that Garden City and Myopia were the most highly regarded courses in the early 1900s, and then how do we know that NGLA was generally acknowledged as the best course in this country after opening, and then how do we know that Pine Valley is generally acknowedged to have supplanted it a few years later?

Is any such time machine that you refer to necessary?   Did either of us play NGLA in 1911, or Pine Valley in 1918?   Or, do we use old news accounts and contemporaneous accounts from that period?   

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

If I was able to travel back in time I would be tempted to find myself on a specific train traveling from Atlanta and to see if one Mr. Barker got off at Philadelphia and follow him that day to see where he goes and what he does... Oh wait, this is the wrong thread...

[David Stamm]

Mike, you're describing courses that are considered amongst the best. If I'm not mistaken, you're saying before Bethpage, Cobbs Creek was considered the best public course, no?

[Tom MacWood]

Here is my first attempt to add the architects with the courses, hopefully I can figure out the rest.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924)
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924)
Nemadji Muni (1932)
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[Tom MacWood]

Tom M., I don't see Fox Hills on there. And since I just got back from trip around the USA playing all these courses in my time machine, I'm quite certain that it was the best......

I wanted to add Fox Hills in the worst way but I'm pretty sure it began as a private course.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike,

If I was able to travel back in time I would be tempted to find myself on a specific train traveling from Atlanta and to see if one Mr. Barker got off at Philadelphia and follow him that day to see where he goes and what he does... Oh wait, this is the wrong thread...

That is funny, but what would be funnier is trying to somehow turn this into a tilly thread!!!!!

[Allan Long]

Here is my first attempt to add the architects with the courses, hopefully I can figure out the rest.

Patty Jewett (1919) -
Brackenridge Park (1917)

Patty Jewett (1919) - Willie Campbell (not of TCC fame)
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.W. Tillinghast

If the Memorial Park in the one in Houston - John Bredemus

[Mike Cirba]

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[Phil_the_Author]

Tom you dated Brackenridge Park incorrectly.

Brackenridge Park was open for play on November 28, 1916.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Is there a purpose to your non-sequitur of a list?   Are we supposed to be impressed by the architects involved?   Why did it take you over a week to name some of the best public ourses from that era, mixed in with a lot of junk?   What is the context of your list and why do you name the courses you did?   Is spending time trying to look up virtually every public course built by a significant architect during the period, whether the course had substance and standing when it was built supposed to somehow add value to this thread, or simply just listed to appear relevant to those without deeper interest or understanding of that time period?

What can you tell us about the course at Rock Manor that made your list?

How about "Split Rock", from 1901?   Which Forest Park from 1908 are you referring to?

How about East Potomac?   Have you been there?   What did you think of it?   La Tourette??   Have you played it?

Brackenridge Park?   What architectural features most impressed you?

Perhaps you can describe why you've included courses built after 1930, when I qualified twice on the other thread that I was referring to courses prior to the Depression, and why you then needed to include 33% of your courses in that 5 year time period between 1930-35?

How many of the courses listed have you seen or played?   Any of them??

Mike
This is my take on the best public courses in the country pre-1936. It took me this long because I was not following this thread (the second thread on public courses sparked me). I've grown tired of your never ending Cobbs Creek & Hugh Wilson pump jobs. The list is based on contemporaneous reports and profiles. I think you will find that there are as many unknown or unsung architects as high profile. Rock Manor was designed by Wilfred Reid. Split Rock was a significant VanKleek redesign during the Robert Moses era. Forest Park is in St. Louis. East Potomac was a well respected course the result of a collaboration between Travis & White. It was designed to played conventionally or in reverse, and hosted the second US Publinx in 1923. I've not played the course. I've not played Le Tourette either, but it was also a well respect public course. I've not played Brackenridge Park, but evidently you were impressed by it because you place in your top 10. I don't believe you ever mentioned the  Depression on this thread...I'm simply responding to your claim CC was the best most challenging course prior to Bethpage (1936). You can back down all you want on that other thread. 66% of these courses are prior to the Depression if it matters. I've played a handful of these courses.

Where do you think CC would fall in this group? I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the pack and that is on a good day, a very good day.

[Tom MacWood]

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

You might want to add Westwood Public Golf Course (Max Behr) which opened in 1927, as well as Sunset Fields (William P. Bell)  which opened around the same time.  I believe Sunset Fields had two 18 holes courses and a 9 hole course.   Also, Griffith Park (Thomas) is actually two courses (Wilson and Harding) as is Brookside in Pasadena.    

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom,

Is there a purpose to your non-sequitur of a list?   Are we supposed to be impressed by the architects involved?   Why did it take you over a week to name some of the best public ourses from that era, mixed in with a lot of junk?   What is the context of your list and why do you name the courses you did?   Is spending time trying to look up virtually every public course built by a significant architect during the period, whether the course had substance and standing when it was built supposed to somehow add value to this thread, or simply just listed to appear relevant to those without deeper interest or understanding of that time period?

What can you tell us about the course at Rock Manor that made your list?

How about "Split Rock", from 1901?   Which Forest Park from 1908 are you referring to?

How about East Potomac?   Have you been there?   What did you think of it?   La Tourette??   Have you played it?

Brackenridge Park?   What architectural features most impressed you?

Perhaps you can describe why you've included courses built after 1930, when I qualified twice on the other thread that I was referring to courses prior to the Depression, and why you then needed to include 33% of your courses in that 5 year time period between 1930-35?

How many of the courses listed have you seen or played?   Any of them??

Mike
This is my take on the best public courses in the country pre-1936. It took me this long because I was not following this thread (the second thread on public courses sparked me). I've grown tired of your never ending Cobbs Creek & Hugh Wilson pump jobs. The list is based on contemporaneous reports and profiles. I think you will find that there are as many unknown or unsung architects as high profile. Rock Manor was designed by Wilfred Reid. Split Rock was a significant VanKleek redesign during the Robert Moses era. Forest Park is in St. Louis. East Potomac was a well respected course the result of a collaboration between Travis & White. It was designed to played conventionally or in reverse, and hosted the second US Publinx in 1923. I've not played the course. I've not played Le Tourette either, but it was also a well respect public course. I've not played Brackenridge Park, but evidently you were impressed by it because you place in your top 10. I don't believe you ever mentioned the  Depression on this thread...I'm simply responding to your claim CC was the best most challenging course prior to Bethpage (1936). You can back down all you want on that other thread. 66% of these courses are prior to the Depression if it matters. I've played a handful of these courses.

Where do you think CC would fall in this group? I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the pack and that is on a good day, a very good day.

Tom,

For Split Rock, do you mean the Pelham Golf Course on site because I believe the split rock course was a new 18 hole course and the pelham course is the original course by Lawrenc Van Etten that was renovated by John Van Kleek.

Thanks,
Chris

[Tom MacWood]

Chris
You're right, but I think at one time it was one 27-hole complex (old + new).

[Tom MacWood]

I added Wilmington Muni, Tam O'Shanter and North Park.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris
You're right, but I think at one time it was one 27-hole complex (old + new).

I thought it was just the Pelham Golf Course by Van Eten and Van Kleek came in and renovated the 18 hole course and added 18 new holes.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

I added Wilmington Muni, Tam O'Shanter and North Park.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - J.Bredemus
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

Good call on Tam O'Shanter.

Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?

Where is North Park located?

Thanks,
Chris

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Good call on Tam O'Shanter.

Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?

Where is North Park located?

Thanks,
Chris

Chris
Van Kleek was Robert Moses' golf architect for the municipal courses around NYC. He designed and redesigned a number of courses for Moses in the 1930s and I'm pretty certain La Tourette was one of them. North Park is in Pittsburgh.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I like the way you have diversified. In the past you attempted to throw the reputations of CBM, Whigham and Barker under the bus in order to pump up Wilson (at least that is what you thought you were doing), now you are trying to throw some of the top public courses from the 20s and 30s under another bus in an attempt to pump up CC.

Eight down, only about 48 more to go....keep up the good work.  

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I found this in the 1930-31 American Golf Guide and thought you might find it interesting.