[Mike Cirba]

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[Mike Cirba]

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[Steve_ Shaffer]

Juniata was the site of my first golf shot on a course- the infamous first hole at Juniata is a 150y downhiller which could be played with a putter if one chose to do so as it was a really "fast and firm" course. I usually brought a small hammer to use in order to pound a tee in the ground.

It is no longer a muni as it has been operated the past 2 years by a non profit foundation organized by a Philly police officer. I understand conditions have improved there under this group's management. The clubhouse burned down a few years ago. Joe Logan's articles on Juniata are no longer online.

Here's a capsule on the course:

http://delvalley.golfersguide.com/index.php?option=com_ggms&task=course_detail&course_id=2643&Itemid=95

More courses like Juniata need to be built so that beginners and seniors can learn play golf and even walk while doing so.

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?

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[DMoriarty]

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.

I've played Cobbs many times and like the course, but this is an asinine statement, even for you, Mike.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.

The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.

Have a great day!  

[Kyle Harris]

David,

Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.

The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.

Have a great day!  

I think David is more saying that your proof is akin to proving I've never been to Houston by showing a picture of every building in town without me in front of it.

I think it's safe to have that as an opinion, but without proper context it must remain just that.

I agree it probably was the, if not one of the, top publicly run golf courses in the country at the time frame you suggest - but that is nothing more than an opinion.

As for Juniata - I was very pleasantly surprised at the amount of good stuff under all the years of neglect. The 17th and 18th are very good.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Are any of us ever offering any more than hopefully informed and sometimes evidence-based "opinion" in any of our discussions here once we get beyond the uncovering and later regurgitation of dry facts?  

Joe Bausch has posted contemporaneous, lengthy articles from rival New York papers lauding the course as well beyond anything the city had, and many other articles throughout the 20s are similarly complimentary.  Perhaps David missed those in his absence.

If David didn't agree with my "opinion", he could have said so and offered a contrary opinion of his own, and perhaps tried to show similar evidence that some other course or courses at that time were infinitely superior.   Instead, he took the cheap and easy road and just shot me another personal insult.

That's fine.   It just doesn't make for very interesting or informing discussion.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike
Do you think Wilson's involvement at Cobbs Creek and Juniata helps or hurts his architectural legacy?

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.

I think that's the offending line, that's all.

I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Should we consider opinion here to be self-evident, or should we have to qualify each written statement of opinion with "My opinion is...", or "I believe that...", or "I would venture to venture that..."....

 

[DMoriarty]

David,

Please name a better, more highly regarded public course between 1916 and 1930.

You are confused Mike.  I am not the one who made the outrageously ignorant proclamation about the vast superiority of Cobb's Creek to every other public course in the nation!!    I can't exactly place Cobb's Creek among the hundreds (thousands?) of public courses in existence at the time, because I haven't done a comprehensive study of all the public courses in existence prior to 1936.

Mike Cirba, have you done a comprehensive study of all the public courses opened in the United States before 1936?
  -  If so, why don't you educate us with your comparative analysis of these and Cobbs.
  -  If not, then why do you continue to make such asinine pronouncements about matters so far beyond your narrow knowledge base?    

The fact that you "like the course", even in a state of maintenance disrepair during the time you were here with 33% of it lost to a compromised, greatly constricted routing is pretty amazing, I think.

This is a good example the sort of specious reasoning that you just cannot seem to escape.   What makes you think I am incapable of seeing past the maintenance issues to the quality of the course?  What makes you think I am not familiar with what has happened there over the years or that I am incapable of taking that into consideration?   What do you know about when I have seen Cobb's or what I know about the place generally?  

Of course none of this matters to you, because you are totally agenda driven, result driven.   Your predetermined answers shape every supposed question you pretend to ask.  That's why you are Philadelphia's Phavorite Phawning sycoPHant.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Should we consider opinion here to be self-evident, or should we have to qualify each written statement of opinion with "My opinion is...", or "I believe that...", or "I would venture to venture that..."....

 

Well yes, that can get tedious. But, you did specifically say "fact" in that line.

Perhaps we should just move on in the discussion from the superlatives?

I got it. Let's do a hole by hole match play with Cobbs in the original configuration and some of the other publics? I know it's not everyone's cup of tea - but I think it could be a very lively and fun discussion!

[Mike Cirba]

I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.

Kyle,

Now that's an opinion I find to be very amusing.  

I think it's obvious that since no one is buying their theories these days, "these guys" have nothing left to do but sit in the cheap seats and throw potshots when they see opportunity.

Must be a lot of fun, I guess, but "infuriating" is hardly the reaction they are getting from me.

[Kyle Harris]

I know it's infuriating, but these guys are right about the way the information is presented.

Kyle,

Now that's an opinion I find to be very amusing.  

I think it's obvious that since no one is buying their theories these days, "these guys" have nothing left to do but sit in the cheap seats and throw potshots when they see opportunity.

Must be a lot of fun, I guess, but "infuriating" is hardly the reaction they are getting from me.

Sometimes the fans in the cheap seats see a bad call on the field.

They're right Mike. They may not be the best at it and may be just trying to be jerks - but they are right.

How about my second point? Think that'd be fun? I'm game.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Have a great day! 

Kyle,

If someone (David included) wants to nominate other public courses from that era for hole-by-hole matchplay-discussion I'd be happy to participate.

[mike_malone]

 I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time. Any other munis from the same time which were its equal were mighty fine courses.

[Kyle Harris]

David,

Oh, Master Mental Masturb*tor and Misinterpreting Maven of Most things Merion.    

I figured you woudn't have a viable alternative as a public golf course from that era that you'd want to nominate.  

Kyle,

If someone (David included) wants to nominate other public courses from that era for hole-by-hole matchplay-discussion I'd be happy to participate.

Mike,

Regardless of the intent, the burden of proof lies on those making the claim. You can't negate the opposition for not offering contrary evidence since your argument isn't complete yet. Come now, I figured you would have watched at least one Leary/Liddy debate in your time

Let's dig for some candidates.

I've got an interesting one: Babe Zaharias in Tampa (J. Franklyn Meehan!).

How about Van Cortlandt Park?
Harding Park in San Francisco?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.

Mike, you look really good for about 100 years old.  I hope I can look as good as you when I get to that milestone!  

In all seriousness, let's get to Paxon Hollow sometime this year.  It looks really good.

[Mike Cirba]

I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.

Michael,

It's interesting you say that, because I've also played many, if not most of the historical public courses from that time.

In fact, despite my "narrow experience", or whatever else was represented about me above, I've played all the historic public city courses of New York, Baltimore, New Orleans, Atlanta, District of Columbia, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Garden City, Sioux Falls, Minneapolis, San Antonio, San Diego, Denver, Miami, Newark, Wilmington, Elmira, Phoenix, Tucson, and others.

One of my favorite things to do in visiting any city is to find the oldest public course(s) in town and venture out to play them.   Many times, no one has ever had much money to futz with them and many of the vintage architectural features and charm are intact.


Kyle,

I don't have to "prove" anything, and the last thing the world needs is another circuitous, long-running argument pointlessly argued without end, redundantly on GCA.  

Lord help us...

Those who think my opinion (based on travels and experience) is worthwhile will perhaps find my opinion of value and those who do not (for whatever reason) will not.

[Kyle Harris]

I have played many of the best courses in the world that existed at the time that Cobbs was built and feel confident in saying that the original routing of Cobbs was surely one of the finest and most demanding courses to be found anywhere at that time.

Michael,

It's interesting you say that, because I've also played many, if not most of the historical public courses from that time.

In fact, despite my "narrow experience", or whatever else was represented about me above, I've played all the historic public city courses of New York, Baltimore, New Orleans, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, Denver, Miami, Newark, Wilmington, Elmira, Phoenix, Tucson, and many others.

One of my favorite things to do in visiting any city is to find the oldest public course(s) in town and venture out to play them.   Many times, no one has ever had much money to futz with them and many of the vintage architectural features and charm are intact.


Kyle,

I don't have to "prove" anything, and the last thing the world needs is another circuitous, long-running argument pointlessly argued without end, redundantly on GCA. 

Lord help us...

Those who think my opinion (based on travels and experience) is worthwhile will perhaps find my opinion of value and those who do not (for whatever reason) will not.

That's fine, but don't utter the "f word," as a result. Fact requires proof, don't you agree? Like I said, I agree with your opinion.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

I should have said, "the fact that during those years, Cobb's Creek was the most highly regarded course in the country in the opinion of many of the pundits who wrote at all about public courses", but that gets too long to type.  

I'm heading out...too nice a day.

[DMoriarty]

Back on the first page of this discussion, Kyle Harris tried to turn Mike's hyperbolic boasting into a positive discussion about early quality design.   At that point, I responded . . . .

Kyle,

I appreciate your attempts to turn this conversation into something positive, but Mike Cirba has no interest in actually discussing the top pre-1936 public courses in the country, not unless he can easily be twisted into something that fits his agenda.    

I'd be very interested in an intelligent conversation of the early quality public designs, but Mike Cirba has no place in that conversation!

Mike, your immature efforts to derail the threads continue to prove me correct.  But enough already.  Fix the title of the thread and move along.

[mike_malone]

 As I experience the current routing and imagine the original I'm most impressed with the routing as what makes the original more interesting . If the routing is the test of the architect's skill then whoever routed Cobbs was a very good architect. Taking the course up the hill on #6 is the most important decision that was made. Then breaking up the back and forth across the top of the ridge that now exists is also a more interesting use of the land. The amazing par five # 11 had to be rivaled by few par fives anywhere. The drop shot #12 was a wonderful transition back down the hill. #9 was an angled fairway that we all admire in Flynn's work. #10 at 200 yards uphill would have been a challenge to play. #13 was a serpentine par five with blindness on the approach.

  I'm sure if David Moriarity really imagined what I do he wouldn't be saying what he did.

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