[Tom MacWood]

A correction was printed in a subsequent issue.

I think I have been extremely critical in determining which courses make the list, and which ones I have disqualified. I have disqualified quite a few. Written accounts are only one determiner, an important one, but not the only one. One has to remember quality was not the only reason a course got written about in the golf publications of the day. I've learned through my research on Ohio State GC, Colt, etc. that politicking was a major factor in who got written about and who did not. Often it was who you knew or if you advertised or spent money with. The few courses that were not written about (or not written about much), like Colony, Opa Locka and Daly City, were part of real estate developments that struggled mightily and were short lived.

Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?

[Mike Cirba]

Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?



Tom,

That's my point...I know absolutely nothing about it, and I doubt you and/or Dan Wexler know anything much about it either, although you say it was a great site that you visited.

I think my exact comment originally was something like "was regarded before the Depression as the most demanding and best public course...".

I cannot for the life of me tell how Colony was regarded because in any number of historical news archive subscriptions I have, I cannot find a single mention of the course, which tells me that almost no one knew it existed at the time.

How highly regarded could it have been?    

I like Charles Alison too, but I get the sense that your list is more based on the reputation of the architect than any understanding about the quality and/or reputation of the course at the time it existed.   In the case of Colony, I'm not sure I find it appealing to think that the fairways and greens were essentially islands in swampland....  

Is there an aerial that exists, other than the drawing in Dan Wexler's book?

[Tom MacWood]

I posted the aerial.

Based on the site, based on the layout and based on who designed it, is there any reason for you to conclude Colony was not among the best 70 public golf courses of the time, and probably closer to the top rather than the bottom?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but my whole basis for determining status of courses during that period is sort of like the celebrity test.

If a course got a lot of press and favorable comments by knowledgeable people of the time it was likely a very good course.   

Otherwise, we're guessing at what might have been.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

As I've been following along with some interest in this thread without commenting for quite a while, when you just said that you "posted the aerial" for Colony I decided to go back and take a look at it and i found two problems.

First, it appears you didn't post it in the last three pages so i was wondering if you might remember exactly where it is.

Secondly, and more importantly, I would have kept searching except I noticed that EVERY one of your photo posts can not be seen. I only see a text box with a big red "x" in it but no picture. You may be having a problem with what you are posting and not know it...

[Tom MacWood]

Wayne Morrison places Opa Locka near the top of Flynn's resume and there is even less info on that golf course. When it comes to these types of historical evalutions its always subjective, especially lost courses. Evaluating courses that are a shadow of their former self, like Cobbs Creek & Sharp Park, is a guessing game too. And speaking of guessing games, it doesn't get more subjective than this statement:

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

You're asking me to comment on/evaluate a course that existed for a brief flicker of time that I can't even find proof existed at all.

No one at that time chronicled it that has been preserved, which begs the question...if it was so damn good, why not??

[Tom MacWood]

Do you think Wexler fabricated the info on Colony? Typically you won't find much info on golf courses that opened and closed during the Depression. One of the problems being the major golf magazines of the era went under circa 1935-36. Thankfully in the case of Colony we know the site, the layout and the architect were all outstanding.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I don't think anyone fudged anything, but Daniel Wexler's account doesn't provide much info about Colony either.

It's your list, Tom...you don't need my agreement, but since it's under my name I will question your picks when unclear as to your reasons in the interest of all of us learning more about them.

[Tom MacWood]

It's your list, Tom...you don't need my agreement, but since it's under my name I will question your picks when unclear as to your reasons in the interest of all of us learning more about them.

Big surprise there, ever since the focus of the thread shifted to addressing your crazy statement you've been complaining more than a menstruating teenager...and it has nothing to do with whose name is on the thread.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Menstruating Teenager here... sorry to complain again, but can you PLEASE check the images you are pasting as they simply don't show up when I come on the thread. All that appears is a red "X" in a box.

I really would like to see the aerial for Colony...

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If I didn't respond questioning your unilateral and unsubstantiated nominations, who would?

Why, this thread would simply fall of the first page into GCA-nether-regions every single day, and none of us here would ever want such a travesty to occur.  

Oh wait...    



p.s.   If you're still working this hard to dispute my "crazy statement" over two months after the fact...well, actually 6 months since I first made the statement on another thread in February, that simply tells me that you aren't very confident with your list as evidence to dispute it.   Adding in the post-1929 courses and the elite, second-home resort community courses that have nothing at all to do with any claim of mine and you still aren't confident?    Sheesh...who's the menstruating teenager here?    

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
The site must be experiencing technical difficulties because all of the images I've posted in the past month are gone too.

Mike
Your ridiculous statement was settled a long time ago, we've now moved on to just how asinine was it phase. Was it just a slightly asinine statement or was it an over-the-top-you-need-your-head-examined asinine statement or somewhere in between. Its looking more like the over-the-top variety.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Good one. 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It's 10:53pm EST and this thread has once again fallen like a rock onto the second page.

I started feeling a bit sorry for it so thought I'd give it a bump. 

I'd hate to see where it was by morning if I hadn't acted.   

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

Can you explain why you are constantly monitoring where this thread is among the pages?   You've probably made a dozen references to it falling off the first page.  Would falling off the first page indicate that it had no value?  Is that what were here for?  To try and see if we can keep our threads on the first page?  Just how fast should a conversation on very old public courses move in order for it to be worthy in your eyes?   The way I see it, Tom MacWood is the pretty much the only one adding anything of value, so the proper pace is at his leisure.   

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Big surprise there, ever since the focus of the thread shifted to addressing your crazy statement you've been complaining more than a menstruating teenager...and it has nothing to do with whose name is on the thread. - Tom MacWood

Mike
Your ridiculous statement was settled a long time ago, we've now moved on to just how asinine was it phase. Was it just a slightly asinine statement or was it an over-the-top-you-need-your-head-examined asinine statement or somewhere in between. Its looking more like the over-the-top variety. - Tom MacWood[


David,

Would you like my Top 10 reasons?

10.  Like a Bad Penny, It keeps turning up.

9.  The thread is directed at me personally

8.  If I don't correct all the errors here, who will

7. I can't wait to see what obscure, never-heard-of course is nominated next

6. Like a stolen car in a high speed chase, I'm waiting to see the threadjacked vehicle hit the wall

5. I'm still waiting to see a more highly regarded pre-Depression course named

4. I'm trying to see if Tom can name-drop every Golden Age archie on one thread

3. Given the value per post here, bandwidth must be cheap

2. It keeps Tom off the Merion threads

and the Top Reason given for why I respond to Tom here?

1. After you and Tom thredjacked what was previously a valuable historical thread, someone has to show the love and respond.  After all, who else in their right mind would read this?    

[Tom MacWood]

I've removed Hollywood in Florida; it was directly connected to a hotel.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford  (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones  (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Mike Cirba]

And David...I thought I was being rather restrained with my Top 10 Reasons.

I heard that a straw poll was taken of the other 4 people who read this thread, and their Number One answer given when asked why they checked this thread was;

"I find it highly entertaining to watch Tom compare the quality of courses he's never been to from 15,000 foot aerials."    

[DMoriarty]

Mike,   Whatever idiocy started the inquiry it has actually evolved into something interesting -- an attempt by Tom Macwood to figure out which were the  better public courses prior to Bethpage Black.   Your ten reasons notwithstanding, I've no idea why you keep trying to make it about you, or why you equate a thread's value to how long it stays on the first page.

As for your original pronouncement, my position is the same at is has always been.   It has never been my job or Tom's job to prove you wrong, but your job to prove it right.  And, ironically, all your complaints about Tom trying to figure this stuff out with limited information apply to you in spades.

Think about it.   When you made your claim, it wasn't just about Cobbs.  It was about every single public course in the country during the relevant time period.   Despite your pronouncement that you consider yourself the World's foremost expert on these things, you knew (and know) little or nothing about the quality and difficulty of many of these courses in the relevant time period.   How could you?      

So every time you complain about Tom MacWood considering a course based on limited information, the same complaint applies to you as well.   The only difference is that Tom MacWood is at least trying to figure out what was good.   You just propped up Cobbs and dissed everything else without even bothering.

So why not drop the sarcasm and narcissism and either step aside or try to help?  

"I find it highly entertaining to watch Tom compare the quality of courses he's never been to from 15,000 foot aerials."    

I'm glad you are entertained.   But your indignation about Tom's efforts ought to help you understand the indignation about your Cobb's claim.   At least Tom MacWood is trying to reasonably consider the quality of this large grouping of public courses.  You didn't even bother.

Surely it is better to consider the quality of courses from 15,000 feet than to summarily dismiss them without considering their quality at all.  

[Mike Cirba]

Oh David...c'mon, I'm trying to interject some humor here, which is much, much needed.

I know precisely what Tom is trying to do, and I reserve the right to question his selections, as does everyone else.

Sometimes, that process even yields valuable information, such as my discovering that the history of Sharp Park which was much different from the accounts in either Tom Doak's MacKenzie book, or Daniel Wexler's "Lost Links" books.

No biggie...both men were trying to cover broad topics, but I'm glad we now know that the original SP course lasted almost a decade, that H. Chandler Egan was heavily involved, and I think it gives us a more accurate perspective of its original standing among public courses.   I think we found that much of what we originally believed about that standing was based at least somewhat on the star-crossed myth created around it in modern times.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

You can't be bitter, angry, and indignant for months and then try to write it off to humor when called out for it.   Unless you were trying to mock yourself, but I don't think you were.

As far as Sharp Park goes, your proclimation that it was a course originally created with depression relief funds remains unsubstantiated.    

I don't understand why you keep patting yourself on the back for supposedly "discovering" the date the course was rebuilt?  Had you been paying any attention to the debate up there, you'd have known this.  The source of your discovery was information published by other researchers in last year!  You needn't have even left this website to find your "discovery."  From the Links & Harris piece posted in the IMO section in the past year:

Urban legend long had it that portions of the original course were washed away in the 1930s by powerful winter storms.  But in truth, the course weathered the  storms until 1941, when the original strand holes (Nos. 3 and 7) were replaced by an unreinforced sea wall, and four excellent new holes were built by MacKenzie’s associate Jack Fleming, who by then had become San Francisco’s supervisor of golf.  The new holes were built (following MacKenzie’s death in 1934) in a canyon east of the rest of the golf course, located on the other side of what was then state Highway 1.  (An aerial photograph taken in March 1941 shows the original course still intact; the picture was taken just prior to the building of Fleming’s four new holes.)

Given your self-appointed status as the World's most knowledgeable expert on early public golf courses in America, I would have thought you would have at least taken a look.  

Your ability to "discover" things that had been brought forward by others reminds me of something, but I just can't put my finger on it . . .

[Mike Cirba]

Davud,

I would agree that much of the humor found on this thread is largely unintentional, but at least I recognize it.  

As far as the myths around SP, they were being perpetuated here until I posted the contemporaneous news articles.   At one point, I was even accused of starting the rumor that the holes washed into the sea!  

No biggie...if TD and DW can get it wrong, then perhaps we shouldn't be so harsh on old Des Tolhurst.  .


btw, As Sean Tully pointed out, the idea of a golf course at Sharp Park had been talked about and proposed for years.   But as I discovered, it wasn't until a depression-era, $9 million Public Works Program was approved by the City of San Francisco in 1931 that the project got funded and built.   If you think that particular earmarked spending wasn't about stimulating the local economy and more specifically, JOBS creation, I have a bridge for sale.  

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

"Around here?"  It doesn't get much more "around here" than in an IMO on this site.  But this certainly isn't the first time you guys have "discovered" things straight out of an IMO.

It is misleading and unsupported to pretend that this was depression relief spending.  Government spending and business spending were very high at the beginning of the decade. Not because of relief efforts, but because they hadn't yet figured out what was ongoing.  Thus the absurdity of planning to build a yacht basin for the city.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I'm not going to argue the timing of Great Depression era government relief spending except to remind you that even conservative Pres Hoover was trying to create huge public works programs in 1931, directly as a result of huge jobless rates that were happening everywhere in the country after Oct 1929.

Should I re-post all of the contemporaneous  SP articles I found that document the timeline?  I don't think you'll find them in the IMO section.

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