[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,  you've posted over 100 times on this thread about public golf courses, a topic about which you admittedly have little interest and less knowledge.  

Don't you have anything better to do than follow me and MacWood from thread to thread, being obnoxious and trying to start trouble?"


No, David Moriarty, I think my postings on this thread (or most any other you are part of) have a very valid point and purpose. You, by your own admission, have said on here this thread is a subject you don't have much knowledge of as well. It seems you're only point and purpose on this thread is to continue to play your petty little "legal-mind games" to skew Cirba and some point he made about Philadelphia's Cobbs Creek and the comparative quality of it at some point in time.

I'll say again, IF YOU had done one tenth of the good work in your entire career with golf course architecture that Cirba has done with the hopeful and potential restoration effort of Cobbs Creek, then you might have some good right to be proud of yourself with your involvement with GCA, and this website----but the FACT is even that's not remotely true!

I admit, and have before, that one of my primary purposes on this website, is to follow you around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud you really are----and frankly the best and classic example of that is your transparently agenda-driven, remarkalbly illogical (lack of factual support and pumped full of unfactually supported OPINIONATED assumptions, premises and conclusions) ESSAY---eg the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion."

The FACT is, Moriarty, I am never going to let you forget that outrageous and pathetic travesty, your follow up to it and your on-going MO on here, no matter which thread you post on and particularly any on which you mention the efficacy of an IMO PIECE, particularly from me in response to you!!!!  

This DG is where we both can and should do our discussions. If you aren't willing or if you are unable to abide by that I think it says a whole lot about both you and your MO on here and I don't expect to stop pointing that out about you on here any time soon.


As far as MacWood is concerned; he seems to be just trucking on with his 23 page lists of courses without a single person on here understanding what in the world he is doing it for other than some vague reason to counterpoint Cirba for what he once said about a public golf course in Philadelphia perhaps some months ago.

Personally, I don't think you and MacWood are even close to similar but together you two make up a pretty ridiculuous combo somehow and compared to Cirba and what he's all about and has and is trying to do with GCA, I doubt 20 of you two combined could ever hold a candle to him in anyone's opinion!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Paul,

As a friend I strongly urge you to reconsider what you posted to David. It is one thing to have strong disagreements, heaven knows that I've had more than my share with him, but following him "around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud" you believe he really is wrong on any number of levels.

If he is "intellectually bankrupt" as you say it will indeed be easy for any and all to see.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

I said I didn't know enough about public courses to pick a "best" prior to 1936.  But unlike you I do know quite a bit about some of them, especially those out West.  I am also familiar with the general history and evolution of public golf nationwide.   And, unlike you, I am not here trying to waste anyone's time, like you are.  

Like everything else you think you know about me, you have NO IDEA what I may have done or not done regarding public golf.  Not all of us feel the need to broadcast every move we make when it comes to golf courses.  

As for the rest of your post, quoted below, if this is what you live for you are about as pathetic as I thought.  

Pity your polluting Ran's website with your petty vendetta.  

I admit, and have before, that one of my primary purposes on this website, is to follow you around from thread to thread and point out to anyone on or observing this website just what an intellectually bankrupt fraud you really are----and frankly the best and classic example of that is your transparently agenda-driven, remarkalbly illogical (lack of factual support and pumped full of unfactually supported OPINIONATED assumptions, premises and conclusions) ESSAY---eg the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion."

The FACT is, Moriarty, I am never going to let you forget that outrageous and pathetic travesty, your follow up to it and your on-going MO on here, no matter which thread you post on and particularly any on which you mention the efficacy of an IMO PIECE, particularly from me in response to you!!!!  

This DG is where we both can and should do our discussions. If you aren't willing or if you are unable to abide by that I think it says a whole lot about both you and your MO on here and I don't expect to stop pointing that out about you on here any time soon.

As far as MacWood is concerned; he seems to be just trucking on with his 23 page lists of courses without a single person on here understanding what in the world he is doing it for other than some vague reason to counterpoint Cirba for what he once said about a public golf course in Philadelphia perhaps some months ago.

Personally, I don't think you and MacWood are even close to similar but together you two make up a pretty ridiculuous combo somehow and compared to Cirba and what he's all about and has and is trying to do with GCA, I doubt 20 of you two combined could ever hold a candle to him in anyone's opinion!

[Mike Cirba]

Pity your polluting Ran's website with your petty vendetta.  



Now, THAT might just be the funniest thing I've ever read here.

[Tom MacWood]

Here are a couple of views of Brackenridge Park in San Antonio and Twin Hills in Oklahoma City. Twin Hills hosted the 1934 Western Am and 1935 PGA. Brackenridge was a long-time site for the Texas Open.

[TEPaul]

"But unlike you I do know quite a bit about some of them, especially those out West.  I am also familiar with the general history and evolution of public golf nationwide."


David Moriarty:

I'm quite sure you do know more about public golf and public golf courses than I do, but I guarantee you that isn't saying very much about you and what you know about public golf and public courses. 

The only ones I recall ever trying to study were Cobbs, Flynn's Marble Hall (now the private club Green Valley) and Sharp Park recently with Bob Crosby.

However, it seems to me the one who really knows public golf and public courses is Mike Cirba. It seems he has pretty much made a life-long mission of playing them and studying them and all over the country, which makes it so ironic that you feel the need to argue with him about every single little trivial point imaginable. There is no question you are the one who began a vendetta. It started with your participation on those Merion threads some years ago, then that incredibly inaccurate IMO piece on here where the last thing you considered doing is collaborating with people here who really have the knowledge of the history of that course and real familiarity with it, unlike you. That was confirmed by your own admission on here that you were only interested in learning about it. If you were why didn't you seek out all those that really do know it rather than somehow attempting to confront them about it? 

It was really clear all you were trying to do is somehow embarrass most of us here and it's never stopped as you continue to argue with Cirba and on any thread he is on for virtually years now.

[Tom MacWood]

I've added the yardage and par:

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting   6505 73
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie    6280 72
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie    6154 71
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas    6408 71
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas   6283 71
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   6460 73
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell   6425 71
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell   6555 72
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell   6318 71
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr   6419 72
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson   6425 71
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn   6488 72
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett   6322 70
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross   6282 72
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn   6188 ?
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen   6595 71
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross   6317 71
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead   6519 72
Cog Hill #2 (1926) – D.McIntosh   6120 72
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil   6574 72
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow   6257 70
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman   6710 72
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie   6535 70
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff   6585 71
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson   6200 72
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell   6745 72
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell   6375 70
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil   6212 71
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay   6487 70
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles   6309 72
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook   6885 72
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson   6601 72
Colony (1926) – CH.Alison  6465 70
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross   6445 71
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark   6368 70
Keller (1929) - P.Coates   6544 72
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis   6390 72
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray   6625 71
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast   6319 72
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis   6269 72
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie   6485 71
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast   6468 70
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast   6695 71
Green Lake (1936) – RT.Jones   6212 71
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek   6681 72
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet   6200 73
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek   6624 71
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross   6412 72
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek   6716 71
Community (1912) - W.Hoare   6341 71
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross   6511 70
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  6505  73
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson   6125 70
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves   6550 72
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber   6610 71
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell   6465 70
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan   6139 71
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson    6252 71
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy   6185 71
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn   6439 71
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler   6490 72
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast   6700 71
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross   6449 72
Stevens Park (1924)                      6385 71
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke   6220 74
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast   6207 72
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus   6920 72
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan   6277 70
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James   6450 72
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen   6575 71
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris    6240 72
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford   6690 72

[DMoriarty]

A green at Brookside 1, from about 1930 (during second course construction.)

[Tom MacWood]

I added Kelsey City.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford  (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1926) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones  (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Mike Cirba]

I added Kelsey City.



Tom,

You're now adding nine-hole courses in resort communities like West Palm Beach?  

Seriously, is it because you think people here will recognize the name William Langford and think it must have been terrific?

What can you tell us specifically about the quality of the golf course...not some news artvertisement designed to sell real estate mind you...what can you, Tom MacWood tell us about the golf course since this is your list?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,


We can debate the inclusion or exclusion of certain courses on this list based on quality, but there's hardly a course here that I wouldn't classify as "Public", at least in the 1982 timeframe the course was put together, with the possible exception of Edgewood Tahoe, which probably got on simply through having hosted the 1980 US Publinks tournament, and possibly beginning some of the confusion.

FIRST TEN

Brown Deer Park - Milwaukee, WI - 1929
Cog Hill #4 - Lemont, IL - 1964
Edgewood Tahoe - Stateline, NV - 1968
Indian Canyon - Spokane, WA - 1934
Otter Creek - Columbus, IN - 1964
Plumas Lake - Marysville, CA - 1926
Tanglewood - Clemmons, NC - 1958
Torrey Pines South - La Jolla, CA - 1957
Wailua - Kauai, HI - 1960
West Palm Beach - WPB, FL - 1947

Mike
When you posted this list you didn't seem to have a problem with a public course in West Palm Beach (or Kauai for that matter).

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Here is a schematic of the course. IMO it looks like a fascinating design; one that could have easily been considered amongst the top public courses at the time. Especially when one considers who was responsible for it. I found this blurb in American Golfer. It is interesting the author confused Langford's work with that of Raynor & Banks.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Interesting that you seem to get your opinions of golf courses back then from the frequent News Artvertisements that ran in most northern cities each week looking for resort travellers.

Why didn't you post what Daniel Wexler wrote about it since you posted his drawing.   I wonder where he got his bunkering patterns from?

"This William Langford nine, built for resort developer Harry Kelsey, was short-lived and woefully undocumented.   Located west of Route 1 (which would not be along the ocean - comment mine) and south of Northlake Avenue, it wandered through thick Florida scrub, making use of native sand on several holes, including both par threes.   Interestingly, it appears that no clubhouse was everr built, though a clearing near the ninth green clearly suggested its in intended location."

Card yardage on what sounds to be flat Florida terrain through scrub was 3135.  

I'm not sure what "short-lived" means...I know it was still around by 1935 (opened in 1924).  Sounds a bit like the description of Sharp Park.

Sounds scintillating.   I'm sure it was one of the very best resort community golf courses built before the end of 1936.  

Originally Kelsey's plans for "Kelsey City" included three Donald Ross courses with all the usual resort and real estate amenities particular to South Florida, particularly during those development years, but that never came to fruition, obviously.  


btw...West Palm Beach Municipal which made Golf Digests 1980 list of Top Public courses is a course built by the city chiefly for its residents and maintains very affordable golf to this day.   You should try to play it sometime...it's very good.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Kelsey City was a planned community (Olmsted Brothers) with a daily fee golf course. Here is a link to its history.

You seem to have a double standard when it comes public golf courses past and present. In 1923 West Palm Beach is a resort community, but today it is your average municiplaity with a public golf course.

http://www.lakeparkflorida.gov/page.asp?PageId=2

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Kelsey City GC was around until at least 1935 (opened in 1924).   If it had been renowned in any way as a golf course I'm sure someone, somewhere would have reported that, and not just the normal travel advertisement blurbs.

I would agree with you that it was a public golf course in a planned resort community, although the original intent was to be part of a resort community.   That really never happened, for whatever reason (I think there was a bridge needing to be built that didn't happen) so instead of the originally planned 3 Donald Ross courses, they ended up with nine stranded holes built by Langford, a good friend of the developer, which were indeed open to the public.

I'm not disqualifying it as not being a public course (albeit in a very rich resort area) and intended as part of a resort community...I'm simply saying it wasn't one of the best and really doesn't deserve a spot on your list based on anything I can find.

Hope that helps.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I'm not surprised there was not more written about Kelsey City beyond the Innis Brown article calling the course splendid. It was a nine-hole course which would limit its exposure, and there was a lot of stiff competition in South Florida and in particular Palm Beach, and the project took a turn for the worst after the great hurricane of 1928. You'll find even less written about Opa Locka and Wayne Morrison places it near the top of Flynn's best courses. Kelsey looks like a hell of design to me.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Are you saying that from an aerial drawing of the course, and from no other contemporaneous accounts, no other laudatory comments besides the Innis Brown article that mistakenly suggests the course was built by Raynor, that you fnd it a "hell of a design"?

No offense, but I find that to be typical of the approach you take, which I feel is very short-sighted and limited by definition.

I don't know how you can look at a course you've never played, on land you've never visited, and see a flat, two-dimension drawing of hole lengths and widths, and make some determination as to its quality.   

Nevertheless, for your list purposes, even if it was a super nine-holer, I'm more of the mindset that a nine-holer has to be almost herculean in quality to approach a quality eighteen hole course.   There are very, very few that do, and that's not just prejudicial to nine-hole courses as simply reflecting the reality that a larger course gives more opportunity for variety, quantity of superb, interesting holes, and general spaciousness.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Are you saying that from an aerial drawing of the course, and from no other contemporaneous accounts, no other laudatory comments besides the Innis Brown article that mistakenly suggests the course was built by Raynor, that you fnd it a "hell of a design"?

No offense, but I find that to be typical of the approach you take, which I feel is very short-sighted and limited by definition.

I don't know how you can look at a course you've never played, on land you've never visited, and see a flat, two-dimension drawing of hole lengths and widths, and make some determination as to its quality.  

Nevertheless, for your list purposes, even if it was a super nine-holer, I'm more of the mindset that a nine-holer has to be almost herculean in quality to approach a quality eighteen hole course.   There are very, very few that do, and that's not just prejudicial to nine-hole courses as simply reflecting the reality that a larger course gives more opportunity for variety, quantity of superb, interesting holes, and general spaciousness.

That is exactly what I'm saying. I'd also add the fact that William Langford designed and built the golf course was a factor as well. In my experience his courses are remarkably consistent with a very distinct style. I have not played a Langford course that was not very good, and this one was in his backyard.

Do you have a problem with Wayne Morrison placing Opa Locka near the top of Flynn's courses?

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a map of Colony (from Daniel Wexler's Lost Links), which was located on Lake St. Claire outside of Detroit. It is typical of CH Alison's work with its bunkering style and the use of the stream. The course was actually built in a marsh with the fairways and greens being more or less islands within it. The course struggled through the Depression before succumbing during WWII. The design included series of pumps and dikes to control the water level, but when gas rationing went into effect the club gave up and the course went back to its natural state, which is where it is today. Here is link to the St. John Marsh. The course was located at the most westerly do not enter area, the area with the diagonal stream.

http://www.claytownship.org/about/stjcu03/index.asp

[Tom MacWood]

I've added Miami Municipal designed by Langford & Moreau.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Kelsey City (1924) - W.Langford  (W.Palm Beach, Fl)
Miami Muni (1922) - W.Langford (Hialeah, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1935) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones  (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,  what can you tell us about Colony as a golf coiurse?

I don't see a mention of it in any accounts of the time...if a tree falls...?

How bout Miami..what was it's chief attribute?

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

Are you still considering Long Beach Muni?    Sounds like it was a pretty solid course.   

How about Los Serranos Country Club, John Duncan Dunn, from the mid 1920s?  I think it was built to be private, but I am not sure it ever was.    It was definitely public in the late 1920s.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,  what can you tell us about Colony as a golf coiurse?

I don't see a mention of it in any accounts of the time...if a tree falls...?

How bout Miami..what was it's chief attribute?

I can't tell you a lot about Colony. I can tell you a lot about CH Alison however; he rarely missed the mark. I've been to the site of Colony and it is spectacular. Based on the aerial I have no doubt it would have been near the top of my list.

There were quite a few articles written about Miami Muni. It hosted a long line of professional and amateur events. Here is a link to one of the articles.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1925/ag281q.pdf

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Are you still considering Long Beach Muni?    Sounds like it was a pretty solid course.   

How about Los Serranos Country Club, John Duncan Dunn, from the mid 1920s?  I think it was built to be private, but I am not sure it ever was.    It was definitely public in the late 1920s.

I'm considering it among several other courses. Sunset Valley in another California course I'm looking at.

[Mike Cirba]

I can't tell you a lot about Colony. I can tell you a lot about CH Alison however; he rarely missed the mark. I've been to the site of Colony and it is spectacular. Based on the aerial I have no doubt it would have been near the top of my list.

There were quite a few articles written about Miami Muni. It hosted a long line of professional and amateur events. Here is a link to one of the articles.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1925/ag281q.pdf


Tom,

In the case of Colony, I don't know...if it were me, I guess I'd prefer to judge the golf course, but I guess it's a start that you visited the site, even sans a golf course and declared it to be one of your favorites.  

I have to wonder, though.  If the course existed for over a decade, and was so spectacular, why do you think no one in the world ever noticed, or at least never wrote a thing about it?   Could you at least post the aerial photo so we can see it in two-dimension?   Not the Wexler drawing...the aerial photo if you would.   I have both of Dan's books.

As far as Miami, I see your point.

That writer was very objective and I'm glad that not a single course in Scotland, England, or the States could surpass this preeminent "George" Langford design.    

I think you need to get a bit more critical in your list qualifications, Tom.   Pretty sketchy at present, if you ask me.  

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