News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2010, 07:40:58 AM »
TMac,

I enjoyed your list of names of designers and thought this info might help you flesh out what to put next to Stevens Park. I researched that a bit years ago when I was doing a master plan there and wrote this:

"Siblings Walter and Annie Stevens in memory of their parents donated about 40 acres about the same time as land was donated for Tennison Park (note, I think this was 1924, as Tmac lists)

In 1927-8, the city purchased 90 acres from developer L.A. Stemmons, who was developing several subdivisions in Oak Cliff, for $140,803.00, and in 1941, the final twelve acres near Hampton Road came from the Catholic Church, bringing the park to its current total of 141 acres. 

Stevens Park has hosted many fine golfers, some of whom went on to prominence on the PGA Tour, including Ralph Guldahl and Frank Beard.  It also has a place in DFW public golf history in its ease of integrating the facility.  After several Ft. Worth courses experience trouble with integration, a group of African American golfers simply asked to play one day in 1957, and were allowed on the course without incident."


I recall reading that there was another city course sit in floodplain land consisting of about three holes, probably designed primarily for minorities at about the same time.  Obviously, public golf was a bit of a scatter shot in the very early days.

As you can see, the course that exists today couldn't have come into existence until at least 1941.  The 1924 version was probably less than 18 holes, and probably just laid out by some now unknown local golfers.  Maybe Bredemus helped with the initial layout when he was doing Tennison, who knows.

This is just another example of the problem of trying to attribute those old courses with one gca name.  While the private clubs picked the name gca's, those public courses had in many cases even more obscure and indefinite early histories.  At least, SP did.  I am sure there are others.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2010, 07:49:22 AM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:07:16 PM by MCirba »

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2010, 08:50:03 AM »

Good call on Tam O'Shanter.

Are you sure than John Van Kleek was the designer of La Tourette golf course?

Where is North Park located?

Thanks,
Chris


Chris
Van Kleek was Robert Moses' golf architect for the municipal courses around NYC. He designed and redesigned a number of courses for Moses in the 1930s and I'm pretty certain La Tourette was one of them. North Park is in Pittsburgh.


Tom,

I know Van Kleek worked for Moses  I have posted information about this many years ago (and I have played almost all of the NYC public golf courses), but if JV did anything at La Tourette, it was minimal at best, I believe the 18 hole course was already in place.

I like a lot of the research that you do Tom and appreciate it, but North Park is a stretch for that list.  Just so my motives are not misconstrued, I do play alot of public golf courses and am always looking to seek out quality older public courses that I may not have played.

Chris



Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2010, 10:32:48 AM »
Chris
La Touqette was expanded from a nine holes to eighteen by Van Kleek. Regarding North Park I don't know if the course has been changed over the years or not, but I do it was very highly regarded back in the day. It must have been pretty difficult too, in the 1965 US Publinx there were only two rounds below par, both -1 70s.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2010, 10:35:31 AM »
Jeff
From what I understand Tenison was designed by SJ Cooper and Jack Burke, both local pros. Cooper was the father of Lighthorse Harry Cooper and Burke the father of Jackie Burke, Jr. In 1926 the course was 27 holes, 18 holes 6400 yds and 9 holes 3200 yds. I'm not sure if Bredemus was also involved or not.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:46:13 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2010, 10:44:31 AM »
I added Starmount Forest. I'm not sure how I missed it - there were some (including Sam Snead) who thought it was the best public course in the country

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1930) - J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1901/1935) - L.VanEtten & J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Wilmington Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White



Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2010, 11:09:55 AM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:07:41 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2010, 09:04:23 AM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:08:06 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2010, 09:11:11 AM »
Jeff
According to the American Golf Guide Stevens Park was a 9-hole course at least through 1927 (I've not seen the 1928 or 1929 Guides) but by 1930 it was listed as an 18-hole course, so sometime between 1927 and 1930 it was expanded. By who, I don't know, but Bredemus would probably be a likely candidate.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2010, 09:15:29 AM »
I removed Wilmington...it still had sand greens in the early 1950s. I changed the attribution on La Tourette and Split Rock.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) -E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2010, 09:20:48 AM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:09:15 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2010, 09:40:18 AM »
Mike
There may have been changes to Ottawa Park in the 20s, but Jermain was definitely behind the work in 1898 and 1908 when the original nine and second nine were laid out. Hence his title as "Father of Toledo Golf" and "Father of Public Golf in Toledo." He was also an original founder of Inverness in 1903. I believe he was that club's first president.

I've already cleared up Split Rock.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2010, 06:37:28 PM »
Tom,

At least you're willing to learn as you go.

Jermain's work at Toledo's Ottawa Park didn't happen until the early 20s, when he worked with James Standish to revamp the course for the first US Public Links, which Standish (a Toledo guy) was essentially the father of.

Still, news accounts of the tourney seem to indicate a lot of 270 yard par fours.

You may also want to clear up your confusion about Split Rock and Pelham Bay, which are two separate courses operating out of the same clubhouse.   The latter was designed by Lawrence Van Etten in 1908, and was the best of the NYC munis until the Depression.   It's still a pretty good course, but Split Rock, built in the 30s' is really good.

And I was the first to point out the Pelham / Split Rock attribution / difference!!! ;D

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2010, 09:08:46 PM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:10:15 PM by MCirba »

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2010, 10:21:00 PM »
Chris,

You've got it!   I don't care who gets credit for this stuff...I just love that so much of it is coming out.   

For all of my differences of opinion with Mr. MacWood, I think he does a great job with his research and I'm happy he does it.

Mike,

I agree that he does amazing research.

Chris

Peter Pallotta

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2010, 10:29:38 PM »
Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day? 

(My home internet is down or I'd look them up myself)

Peter

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2010, 10:39:36 PM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:10:48 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2010, 10:48:00 PM »
Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day? 

(My home internet is down or I'd look them up myself)

Peter

Yes and no. I think all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best, for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2010, 10:49:19 PM »
Here is an article from 1935 that touches on Van Kleek's work in NYC.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1935/ag3810q.pdf

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2010, 11:01:05 PM »
*
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:13:31 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2010, 11:21:27 PM »
"Mike
I like the way you have diversified. In the past you attempted to throw the reputations of CBM, Whigham and Barker under the bus in order to pump up Wilson (at least that is what you thought you were doing), now you are trying to throw some of the top public courses from the 20s and 30s under another bus in an attempt to pump up CC.

Eight down, only about 48 more to go....keep up the good work."



I think the above quote shows crystal clear what MacWood's agenda is on this website and should also show crystal clear to those discerning contributors on this website why he is a GCA research and GCA analytical sham on this website. In the future I hope to show how the new and still structuring USGA Architecture Archve can be a superior entity to promote far better collaborative research and analytical development of the architectural histories of clubs, courses and architects. I feel the latter and the latter method will be much more productive educationally and otherwise for all concerned-----eg clubs, historians, GCA students and others.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2010, 12:28:15 AM »
Once again, the facts get in the way of Mike's phacts . . .


.  .  .
1923    (June) Richard J. Walsh d. J. Stewart Whitham, 6 & 5; E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C.; Medalist - 153, Raymond J. McAuliffe; Entries: 142
.  .  .
Incidentally, not that difficulty equals greatness, but the 152 36-hole Medalist score at Cobb's Creek remains the highest in the history of the tournament.


« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 12:51:42 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2010, 01:08:00 AM »
Tom Macwood,

You stated, "Yes and no. I think all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best, for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red... never hosted the event."

You are wrong in this. Although the Black course didn't host the Publinks it was CHOSEN to be the host course. Because of construction delays one of the other courses took its place. That would be the RED course. The BLUE course was ALWAYS part of the TWO courses needed to host the event.

Itv was the BLUE course which served as the course for the final rounds. What you also don't realize is that the original BLUE course was considered to be a better and far more challenging course than the Red which is why it was chosen as one of the original two hosts and was also then chosen to be the site of the final rounds since the Black was no longer going to be used.  

Bethpage RED hosted the event along with the BLUE course.

Also, in your lists you keep citing 1917 as the year Brackenridge Park opened for play... it didn't. November 28, 1916 is the correct date.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 01:17:49 AM by Philip Young »

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2010, 04:16:09 AM »
Once again, the facts get in the way of Mike's phacts . . .


.  .  .
1923    (June) Richard J. Walsh d. J. Stewart Whitham, 6 & 5; E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C.; Medalist - 153, Raymond J. McAuliffe; Entries: 142
.  .  .
Incidentally, not that difficulty equals greatness, but the 152 36-hole Medalist score at Cobb's Creek remains the highest in the history of the tournament.



My mistake, David...thanks for pointing it out.   I guess I didn't see that one in going through all the years.

Still a pretty brutal 36 hole total against par of 142, with only 8 men breaking 160, wouldn't you agree?


Tom MacWood,

You may have missed one, as well.


1937    (Aug.) Bruce N. McCormick d. Don Erickson, 1 up; Harding Park, San Francisco, Calif.; Medalist - 139, Don Erickson; Entries: 190

« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 04:20:23 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2010, 06:39:55 AM »
Tom,

You might want to add Westwood Public Golf Course (Max Behr) which opened in 1927, as well as Sunset Fields (William P. Bell)  which opened around the same time.  I believe Sunset Fields had two 18 holes courses and a 9 hole course.   Also, Griffith Park (Thomas) is actually two courses (Wilson and Harding) as is Brookside in Pasadena.    


David
I couldn't find anything on Westwood. Is that Montebello Park? I'm adding both Sunset Fields courses; they were both top notch. Originally I'd thought they had been private before going public (like Fox Hills), but I confirmed they began as public courses. The Harding course at Griffith Park was the course I was including. The first 18 at Pasadena was the superior course from all accounts. Bell added 9 holes in 1930, which was referred to as a practice nine, and then some point another nine was added. I'm not sure when or by whom.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:45:39 AM by Tom MacWood »