News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #725 on: July 30, 2010, 11:47:44 AM »
Jeff,  it seems your issues with me go well beyond anything in this thread.   I'd just as soon stick to the thread if you don't mind.   

As for my tone to Mike Cirba, it is no different than his tone to me.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #726 on: July 30, 2010, 11:59:06 AM »
David,

I'd be happy to drop any tone and discuss things productively, even when we don't agree, but from the first page here I've been simply lobbing back the grenades you keep firing.   I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with Philadelphia, or why everything Philly seems to be a red cape for you to charge at, but I'd much rather we reach some sort of mutual understanding and better, more productive dialogue, and I'm pretty sure everyone else here does, as well.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #727 on: July 30, 2010, 12:18:40 PM »
So you thought you'd start with the new tone by accusing me have having "an issue with Philadelphia" and repeatedly attacking "everything Philly?"  That's rich, Mike.

I've got no problem with Philadelphia.  I do strongly disagree with what seems to be your approach to research and analysis, and the approach of some others there.   It is just too fast, loose, and selective with the facts for my tastes, and seems to me to be nothing but overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research.   

Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #728 on: July 30, 2010, 02:24:22 PM »
"Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one."


I think we are well aware you think the facts back you up on this; I think everyone on here and elsewhere is well aware you think the facts back you up on this since you certainly have said so often enough on here. Fortunately, it seem you are the only one, with the possible exception of your cohort in Ohio, who thinks the facts back you up, and most certainly with what you think the facts are that have anything to do with the history of particularly Merion which appears to have been the springboard on here some years ago with your adverserialness to some of us in Philadelphia.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #729 on: July 30, 2010, 02:57:41 PM »
TEPaul,

Get lost.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #730 on: July 30, 2010, 06:47:47 PM »
Typical.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #731 on: July 31, 2010, 10:22:04 AM »
I've added Cog Hill and removed Duck Creek.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #732 on: July 31, 2010, 11:06:29 AM »


I've got no problem with Philadelphia.  I do strongly disagree with what seems to be your approach to research and analysis, and the approach of some others there.   It is just too fast, loose, and selective with the facts for my tastes, and seems to me to be nothing but overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research.  

Now I am sure that you and Jeff and whoever will consider this to be nasty of my to say, but it is the way I see it, and I think the facts back me up on this one.



David,

Now I find that to be extremely ironic and I have to ask why you have no such problem with the research and analysis and overzealous advocacy that has taken place in California in regard to it's historic courses over the past decade or more?

Please show me any comment by any of the authors of books or participants here from California that have been in the least bit critical or made even the slightest negative comment about any of the California works of George Thomas, Billy Bell (Sr.),  Alister Mackenzie, H Chandler Egan, Max Behr, or Tillinghast's work at SFGC, except to exalt their original greatness while bemoaning their losses and changes over time.

Other than that, can you please tell me where the objective or critical analysis of any of their work is so I can go and read it?

Believe me, I understand why guys like Geoff, and Tommy, and Daniel Wexler, and David Stamm, and Sean Tully are big fans of that work, but if you tell me their writing doesn't also enter the realm of "fan-dom" I'm not sure YOU are being objective, David.   I'm extremely grateful for all the history they've collectively uncovered and shared, and I think we all are, but if you think they are also detached critical observers I would disagree with you.

To wit...not to single out Daniel Wexler, but since we're talking about Sharp Park, and since we've already mentioned that he was in error in terms of what happened to the course and when, let me quote;

"Owing to the fact that it was built in 1931, then washed into oblivion by a coastal storm shortly thereafter, its original design was seen firsthand by very few.   Nor was this initial version in any way adequately recorded, with few photographs of any kind known to remain in existence."

Despite it's mystery, and lack of documentary, contemporary evidence, Daniel concludes, "It was, in short, a municipal masterpiece."

Later he writes;

"It was indeed unfortunate for Sharp Park that so many of its best holes fell along the property's ocean side, for it was this flank which took the brunt of any incoming storms.   Following the early 1930s deluge that washed several of those gems out to sea, a massive berm was constructed (largely upon land once occupied by holed three and seven) to prevent history from repeating itself.   The subsequent rerouting of the county road and reconfiguring of the lakeside holes has further muddled things so that today only a handful of holes run consistent with Mackenzie originals, and no appreciable trace of his strategy remains in play."

"How Sharp Park Would Measure Up Today"

"Oceanfront holes, double fairways, MacKenzie bunkering, marvelous scenery..."

"Any way you look at it, even at only 6,154 yards, Sharp Park would have to stand well out in front as America's finest municipal golf course."

"Restoration anyone?"


Now, as we've seen Sharp Park was certainly a fine course, but it did in fact exist for almost a decade in its original state, and was possibly not even the best municipal golf course in San Francisco.

Five years after opening, when the USGA brought the Public Links tournament to the city, the tournament was played at Harding Park.   Even on opening day at SP the scores were quite low, so it's likely to have suffered a bit in terms of challenge for the better player.   This wasn't uncommon, as most architects of the time built public courses to be quite a bit less challenging and demanding than their private course brethren.

In any case, during it's 10 years of existence, I'm not sure it was regarded as anything but a good local CA golf course, on a stirking ocean-front site, and I've yet to come across any articles that spoke of it's wonders, or where any contemporaries compared it to the best courses of its day, public or private.

If anything, I think our modern understanding of Sharp Park is based on as much myth as reality, given the Mackenzie name, the star-crossed history, and the ocean-front setting.

But you won't find any of the California researchers to tell you that, and that's ok.   We all have our preferences, and we are all excited in some ways just to uncover these archeological tidbits from history, so sometimes a bit of hyperbole goes with the territory and most of us understand and respect and even celebrate that.

That being said, I'd LOVE to see Sharp Park saved and restored due to its historic architectural significance, and any help I can provide to that effort I'd gladly do.   I also hope that some of the findings on this thread help to more fully flesh out that history, and I think the now documented significant involvement of H. Chandler Egan, himself vastly underrated as an architect of superb public courses, should hopefully add to that rich heritage.  


Tom MacWood,

You've done numerous adds, deletes, and such since trying to compile this list over the past few weeks.

For instance, for weeks you listed Duck Creek as one of the best public courses through the Depression and today you summarily remove it without explanation.

Can you tell us some of the factors that would lead you to believe one day that it was one of the best public courses in the country and then the next day it falls from grace?

Duck Creek fans at the very least want to know, I'm certain!  ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 12:22:29 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #733 on: July 31, 2010, 12:15:21 PM »
Mike
I've continually added and removed courses throughout the process. Duck Creek was a little too short compared to many of the others. I still believe it was a very good course, one of Langford's interesting bunkerless designs, but probably not up to the standard of the others. I'm considering the removal of Community in Dayton and Cobbs Creek for similar reasons.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #734 on: July 31, 2010, 12:25:53 PM »
Tom,

You stated, "I've continually added and removed courses throughout the process. Duck Creek was a little too short compared to many of the others. I still believe it was a very good course, one of Langford's interesting bunkerless designs, but probably not up to the standard of the others. I'm considering the removal of Community in Dayton and Cobbs Creek for similar reasons."

Two questions.

At this point, exactly what is your list supposed to be defining? Secondly, with possibly removing Cobbs Creek from it, is it your contention that EVERY one of the sourses on the list were considered better courses nationally during those years than Cobb's Creek?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #735 on: July 31, 2010, 12:33:10 PM »
Phil-the-author
I'm trying to identify the best public golf courses in America up until Bethpage-Black. No, at present not all the golf courses on the list were superior to Cobbs Creek.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #736 on: July 31, 2010, 12:35:04 PM »
As I discover new information the list will evolve, courses added and subtracted.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #737 on: July 31, 2010, 12:48:44 PM »
Tom,

How would you define what a public course was in winter resort vacation spots like Florida, North Carolina, etc, at that time?

The list I showed earlier seemed to indicate that virtually every course in the states of GA, NC, SC, and FL were playable by non-members in 1924 for a fee.   Do you interpret that list the same way?

Also, since you continue to ignore the clear, documented evidence that Depression-fueled Public Works projects began shortly after the Crash of 1929, and funded construction of places like Sharp Park, you should probably adjust your date of opening for Sharp Park and add H. Chandler Egan's name to the credits.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 01:02:08 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #738 on: July 31, 2010, 01:02:20 PM »

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.


Mike
I don't have a separate set of criteria for the South. All courses from all parts are subject to the same criteria. I don't know what to make of your list. Obviously mine is much more stringent...I think there are maybe one or two courses on your entire list that made mine.

As far ignoring the Depression I'm simply going by your original statement - I assume you still stand by it.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 01:25:58 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #739 on: July 31, 2010, 04:01:27 PM »
Tom,

I know you're not illiterate, or mentally deficient, or suffering early senility, so why do you continue to act as if that short summary of  what I originally wrote back in February of this year on another thread wasn't already explained to you by myself and others repeatedly?

What I wrote on the George Crump thread about Cobb's Creek, and the statement I still stand by today, especially after seeing your desperation in choosing post-Depression courses and millionaire second-home resort community courses is as follows.   I've bolded the important words in case your reading abilities are akin to your analytical skills.  ;)

For those wanting to read the original, just follow this link.   And Tom...I know you read it, because you replied to it just a few posts later, and others may now note that never have so much time and effort been spent trying to prove that a course wasn't as good as it was.  

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42829.msg930035/#msg930035


My contention that prior to the Depression and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, Cobb's Creek was known as the best public course in the country was greeted with skepticism in some quarters.

Apparently at least one US Pubilnks champion, and one from New York City at that, agreed with me as seen in this 1925 snippet....
;D



« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 04:07:27 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #740 on: July 31, 2010, 05:37:09 PM »
Mike,

I tell you that in my opinion you engage in overzealous advocacy masquerading as unbiased historical research, and your response in post 732 is, "Oh yeah?  Well guys on the West Coast do it, too!"  

You make my case for me.   You don't even understand that your research and analysis must stand or fall on its own merits, not by some misguided comparison to what you think "Geoff, and Tommy, and Daniel Wexler, and David Stamm, and Sean Tully" are up to.  

In fact, you've got some nerve drawing the comparison, even going so far as to call out Daniel Wexler as some sort of a biased hack, and based upon nothing but a fewambiguous newspaper articles,  all because you claim he got the date of a storm wrong?

Let me ask you, Mike, how do you know that the storm you cite was the only storm that impacted the property?  Or is this just another example of you drawing broad conclusions on incomplete evidence?  

As far as the those who conduct research out here, you have no idea.  There are plenty of courses out here with great histories and lineages that never even get a mention on cga.com.   It is not as if anyone out here feels the need to announce it with trumpets blaring every time anyone establishes even the most tenuous connection between a decent course and the likes of Billy Bell, Max Behr, Tillinghast, Egan, Watson, or Mahan, as if it was some giant revelatory discovery.   That is your bailiwick, not any of those you named.  

As I said, Mike, I strongly disagree with your approach to research and analysis, and posts like 732 only bolster my opinion.  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 06:01:52 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #741 on: July 31, 2010, 06:22:02 PM »


Let me ask you, Mike, how do you know that the storm you cite was the only storm that impacted the property?  Or is this just another example of you drawing broad conclusions on incomplete evidence?  



David,

I hope this helps.  

And by the way, I would never call Daniel such a name...that's preposterous.   I simply said he went from saying that very little evidence or photos existed of the course because it only existed in its original form for a very short time, yet then went on to proclaim it head and shoulders the greatest public course in the country, based on that very scant evidence.   As I said, I think that was partly wishful myth, based on MacKenzie, the star-crossed history, and the seaside setting.   Certainly during its 10 years of existence no one I know of compared it to the best courses in the country, or even the best of the San Francisco public courses.

Besides, we all make mistakes, as you so willingly pointed out in the past with writers like Desmond Tolhurst and Tom MacWood did with Jim Finegan.   There's no shame in correcting the historical record or bringing new evidence to light.





« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 06:32:09 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #742 on: July 31, 2010, 08:25:09 PM »
Mike, thanks for pulling up that article, but I had seen it on the sfpublicgolf.com website.   My question to you was about how earlier storms had impacted the course.   For example, Sean Tully mentions that the course had already taken a beating leading up to the storms (and wall) in 1941.

One interesting aspect of the article that you don't reference is that the clubhouse was built with WPA money.   This might explain the money for the roads and buildings to be spent in 1935, money that you simply assumed was for changes to the course itself. 

Funny that I don't recall seeing anything in the save the course material referencing that the entire course was funded as part of government relief programs.   Doesn't that seem like a point that the politically astute group in SF might have seized upon if it was supportable?   Maybe they missed it. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #743 on: July 31, 2010, 08:56:39 PM »
David,

I'm pretty sure that the earlier storms got the course very, very wet.

The MacKenzie/Egan routing was in place for almost a decade as the March 1941 aerial shows.    Apparently, you'd seen that article before but never read it, I guess, or you wouldn't have asked me the question you did.

Do you think they spent another $250,000 in 1935 to simply build that modest clubhouse after spending over $300,000 in 1931/32 to build the entire facility?  

I don't; in fact, the 1935 article indicates that portions of the clubhouse will be reconstructed, but also mentions that "the course will be reconstructed into a model golfing layout."

But that's ok...at least the real story is out there now, so all's well that ends well!  ;D

Between unveiling the actual history of Sharp Park and Tom MacWood still futilely trying to dispute my statement about Cobb's Creek reputation prior to the Depression with his list of a bunch of courses built after the Depression, all in all it's been a terrific week.

Nice to see this thread is finally getting somewhere positive and I think I owe you guys some thank you's for keeping this thread afloat all these weeks.

Thank you, David...Thank you, Tom...  ;D

Hopefully, we can continue on this positive streak.  ;)  :D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 10:09:29 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #744 on: July 31, 2010, 10:10:10 PM »
As usual Mike, you selectively read and then run with whatever conclusions you started with.  Did you quit reading before the part where they broke down what they were actually doing:  building roads, installing a modern irrigation system, as well as rebuilding parts of the clubhouse?  

How can you simultaneously claim that the Mackenzie routing survived until 1941 then claim that they reconstructed the entire layout in 1935?   Only in your world.  

I had read the article and the comments earlier by Sean Tully where he indicated that there had been a series of storms and that the changes may have been in the works for a while.

If this wasn't an ongoing issue, why do you suppose they had pumps and a pumping station? 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 10:19:32 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #745 on: July 31, 2010, 10:50:27 PM »
David,

It's not compliicated; don't try to make it so.

The Wexler book and the Doak book both were simply incorrect in stating that the holes along the ocean basically were washed into the sea a few months after opening.   I asked earlier what folks thought the source of that myth was and Tom MacWood accused me of starting it on this thread!   ::)   I guess neither of you actually read Daniel Wexler or Tom Doak's book, either. 

No one said they didn't have some storm issues prior.   I sure didn't.   I have no idea if they did or didn't.

I simply know that the MacKenzie/Egan course was intact for almost a decade, into 1941.   Surely that's plenty of time for the course to have developed a reputation and legacy, isn't it?

Why do you think the US Publinks went to Harding Park instead of Sharp Park in 1937 if Sharp was the best public course in the world, head and shoulders?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #746 on: July 31, 2010, 11:20:46 PM »
Mike
Who on this thread said Sharp Park was the best public course in the world?

Mike Cirba

Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #747 on: August 01, 2010, 01:08:55 AM »
Tom,

You're the one who singled it out first here on your list of 71 golf courses pre and post depression, which includes courses built for second, third, and fourth-time home-owners in exclusive millionaire communities, so you must have thought it was pretty special.

Of course, at that time you didn't know when it opened, how long it lasted, or anything beyond the 2-dimensional map you found of what it looked like from 10,000 feet in the air, but you slapped it up and pronounced its excellence and then with great confidence asked if it was built with public works monies, which we now find out it was, in spades.

The Wexler book said, speculating on the hypothetical question "How Sharp Park Would Measure Up Today"....

"Any way you look at it, even at only 6154 yards, Sharp Park would have to stand well out in front as America's finest municpal golf course." (Bethpage and others mysteriously notwithstanding)

Perhaps I just extrapolated that bit of hyperbole to being the greatest public course in the world, but you've been at this for weeks and singled it out, and Daniel Wexler speculated that if Sharp Park still existed in its original state today, in 2010, it would still be welll out in front as America's finest municipal golf course, so given the generally well-respected standing of the US courses world-wide, I may have overstated the case somewhat, but perhaps I was only caught up in the obviously overheated grandiose rhetoric of the moment.

p.s.   Thank you for keeping this thread alive, and resurrecting it each day for the past few weeks from the back pages, Lazarus-like, as I feel we've finally made some great progress in the past few days.   For a long time I was skeptical that we'd ever reach a point of actually adding any value with this thread, but I was wrong, and am very glad now that you've saved it from oblivion time and time and time and time and time and time again.   Thanks again.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 01:41:39 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses to 1936 - NOW with Sharp Park history!
« Reply #748 on: August 01, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Mike
I don't recall saying it was the best public course in the world. I don't recall anyone saying it was the best public course in the world. Being one of seventy-one courses does not translate into being the best public course in the world. Either desperation is setting in or you're very tired or perhaps you've flipped your whig or maybe all three. Whatever the case I think you need a break.



However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.


I don't see anything in this quote about the crash of '29, the Depression, the WPA, municipal courses, the destitute, soup kitchens, green fees, the South, real estate developments, yachts or millionaires. My list is attempting to identify the best public golf courses in the country up until Bethpage-Black....the rest of it has no affect on my list, nor should it. You are getting closer to my prediction.


First it was 1936, then it was prior to the WPA, now it is 1930, before we are done it will prior to US involvement in WWI, East of the Mississippi, North of the Mason-Dixon and on an inland site.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 09:47:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #749 on: August 01, 2010, 09:32:49 AM »
I've added in Green Lakes in Syracuse.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones  (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back