[Dale Jackson]

Very clever question, Mr. Cirba! I know there has to be something wrong with the guy; I just wasn't sure what it was. I think you got it----eg he's rich and he owns a yacht.

Well, if it gets me in with the esteemed Philadelphia crowd, no price is too large!

[TEPaul]

Thank you, Sir; I had every confidence you would come around. You are now In Like Flynn. We will even let you see the hit list of the super secret Philadelphia Syndrome Society and all the dead bodies that are stored in the catacombs beneath the Merion clubhouse.

[Mike Cirba]

Darnit Dale...I was so hoping you already owned one so I could wage class warfare! 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I read a small article about Marble Hall Links in Barren Hill Pa. that said it was built as a 'semi-public' golf course in 1925?  What do you think they were describing, something we might call a semi-private today?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Yes...privately owned but open to the public.

[TEPaul]

Again, Marble Hall was created in 1924, designed by Flynn. It was incorporated with ten stockholders including William Flynn and H.C. Toomey. The original board of directors were; William Warner Harper, E.A. Ballard, George D. Widener, Hugh I. Wilson, Mellville G. Curtis. H.C. Toomey was the original president of the corporation. The course basically doubled as an agronomic experimentation station for Metropolitan bent grass that Toomey and Flynn were heavily involved with developing.

The course had NO MEMBERSHIP and it was strickly a "pay-as-you-play" course for anyone including any and all public golfers (unaffiliated with a private golf club), particularly beginners.

It would remain as Marble Hall for many years until eventually becoming Green Valley GC, a private club and course which it is today.

There wasn't anything "semi" about Marble Hall. It was strictly a course for "pay as you play" golf (Public Golf)

[Tom MacWood]

Here is link to an article on Marble Hall written by Howard Toomey. How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1927/2708147.pdf

[TEPaul]

"How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?"


Well, one way you could answer that question is go take a look at the golf course in question for a change, even though it has been changed to some degree particularly due to the relocation of the clubhouse. You could even compare an old aerial to the course today, or you could get in touch with Sean Remington who's the super at Green Valley (the former Marble Hall) and ask him about it. He's registered on this website.

Personally, I would say Marble Hall would have very much compared favorably with the best public courses at the time. It very likely was a course and a design which Flynn ramped up over time because he felt, if given the opportunity, that that was the ideal way to design and develop a golf course (ala Merion East). Since he owned the place obviously he could do that at Marble Hall.

But one of the most interesting aspects of it was it sort of doubled as an agronomic experimentation project as one can tell from Toomey's article. We played a certain amount of local tournaments (GAP) at Green Valley. The golf course definitely has the "bones."

I hope you're learning something about early American public courses Tom MacWood. Marble Hall was an excellent example!

[Tom MacWood]

Here a couple pictures of Gulf Hills designed by Jack Darray.

[Tom MacWood]

"How good was the course, did it compare favorably with best public courses at the time?"


Well, one way you could answer that question is go take a look at the golf course in question for a change, even though it has been changed to some degree particularly due to the relocation of the clubhouse. You could even compare an old aerial to the course today, or you could get in touch with Sean Remington who's the super at Green Valley (the former Marble Hall) and ask him about it. He's registered on this website.

Personally, I would say Marble Hall would have very much compared favorably with the best public courses at the time. It very likely was a course and a design which Flynn ramped up over time because he felt, if given the opportunity, that that was the ideal way to design and develop a golf course (ala Merion East). Since he owned the place obviously he could do that at Marble Hall.

But one of the most interesting aspects of it was it sort of doubled as an agronomic experimentation project as one can tell from Toomey's article. We played a certain amount of local tournaments (GAP) at Green Valley. The golf course definitely has the "bones."

I hope you're learning something about early American public courses Tom MacWood. Marble Hall was an excellent example!

TEP
From what I understand the golf course today is not the same golf course Flynn designed in 1924. The routing is similar but the bunkering is completely changed. The course began with very few bunkers and more were added at some point to give the course some teeth. Do you know when the additional bunkering came in?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Ridgewood still exists today, in what looks to be about 80% original form.   Could you or anyone who has played there describe the course and the land it sits on?

p.s.  I forget exactly, but believe that Marble Hall was re-bunkered in either the late 20s or 30s, but the work was done by Flynn.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If you're going to include Gulf Hills on your list, for consistency and accuracy sake you really need to add Montauk Downs and probably quite a few others along the northeastern corridor including Atlantic City CC and Brigantine.

Gulf Hills was a $75,000,000 resort development outside Biloxi where every home in the "community" was built along the fairways designed to attract vacationers and second-home sales.   As you know, a lot of these type of communities were/are "public" until the real-estate component is sold off, all the while with everyone knowing that they're buying into a private community once that's accomplished.   A hotel, or hotels were almost always part of the deal.

I'm not sure how you can claim that a resort community course like Gulf Hills, and say, Ridgewood or Erskine, or Griffith Park or Marble Hall were in the same category?   Can you share the article those pictures came from?




Earlier on this thread Phil Young claimed that my original contention was simply for municipal courses, but that's not quite an accurate understanding.   Municipal courses fall into the "public" category, as do other pay-as-you-go facilities like Marble Hall, which were privately owned, but open inclusively and affordably to the public, but were essentially "stand alone" golf courses.  

I purposefully excluded resorts like Pebble and Greenbrier, and resort communities are really no different in the least;  even Pinehurst had a real estate component.   Resort community courses where the greens fee was prohibitive to all but the very wealthiest clientele were public in name only, which is why I made that original distinction.

I really don't think the differences are that confusing.

[Tom MacWood]

The first picture came from American Golfer.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1928/ag316q.pdf

The second picture came from a book by GA Farley called 'Golf Course Commonsense.' Why do you ask?

A bungalow is a small home, and they were for sale within the planned community. Like I said before I don't discriminate, a daily fee course is a daily fee course, it doesn't matter if it is part of existing community or planned community. They are public golf courses; they are not resort courses. Your boast included all public golf courses. Comparing a planned community like Gulf Mills to a Pinehurst, Greenbriar or Del Monte is ridiculous.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an aerial of Marble Hall circa 1939.

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=5973&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

[Mike Cirba]

A bungalow is a small home, and they were for sale within the planned community. Like I said before I don't discriminate, a daily fee course is a daily fee course, it doesn't matter if it is part of existing community or planned community. They are public golf courses; they are not resort courses. Your boast included all public golf courses. Comparing a planned community like Gulf Mills to a Pinehurst, Greenbriar or Del Monte is ridiculous.


Tom,

Ridiculous comparison?   While I appreciate you sharing the definition of a "bungalow" with me, you did forget to define "estates", somehow.  




Thankfully, they have a spot for the general public to park their yachts.   Do you think Howard Wheeler could have plunked down his greens fee and developed his game at this public course in Biloxi?  Do you think the factory workers in the cotton mills of Biloxi came down each day at the end of work, clubs in tow, to play Gulf  Hills?   You might not discriminate, but I bet sure-as-shooting that they did.

You have very strange ideas of what constitutes a public course, and if you're going to include millionaire recreational communities you really need to not leave out the good people of the Hamptons and put Montauk Downs on your list, and probably another dozen or so up and down the Atlantic seaboard that offered "public" golf for the well-heeled vacationer and/or the second-or-third-home yachting set.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
An esatate is a large home usually found on a large parcel, and not normally associated with resorts. I cannot think of too many resorts that featured estates, can you? On the other hand estates, large homes and bungalows were not uncommon to planned communities.

You've really got something against the upper and upper-middle classes being associated with public or daily-fee golf don't you? Do you believe that public golf should only be the domain of the middle and lower classes? Are you upset that high end public and daily-fess golf courses are today included in the nationally rankings of public golf courses?

Perhaps you should have included a green fee limitation to your original boast.

Cobbs Creek was the best, most difficult public golf course prior to 1936 to charges a green fee of .50 or less.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom

Perhaps planned, upscale, estate communities with parking for Yachts were part of what was known as "public golf" in the bubble housing years of 1996-2008, but you can't be much of a student of history to believe that to be the case in 1895-1930.  

And I do know what "estates" are, as well.   There are a bunch of them built right across Golf House Rd. from Merion East, built as part of that "planned community".   The difference is that Merion was already starting with a full membership,while these courses were built to attract them.

You really have to get over my statements about the economic and social realities of the time as being "against" anyone, Tom.   Stating something was a fact does not imply some moral determination either in favor or against that fact.   The times were what they were, but as a basis for any discussion in reality we at least have to have some realistic and historically-understood parameters.   Frankly, I just think you're trying to divert attention from my questions on how you're actually making your list distinctions by trying to classify my statements as coming from some class warfare mentality.   That's just deflection, really.  

There were plenty of actual public golf courses before 1930 for you to choose from if you want to debunk my statement, but the courses you named that were resort/real-estate communities for the ultra-rich where only the top 1-5% of golfers could actually play there is a laughable and erroneous comparison.   You must not feel very comfortable with your pickings if you have to choose places that were just as exclusive (only this time through pricing, location, and marketing) as any country club of the times, perhaps more so.

Even if we say you're compiling a list that includes courses built after the Depression, as well as courses built for high-end resort communities, how could you possibly name Gulf Hills and Beaver Point to your list yet exclude Montauk Downs and Atlantic City?    For your list to have any merit, on any level, you at least need to be more consistent in your application.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Have you ever stayed at a resort?

We've already discussed Montauk....remember "operated in connection with Montauk Manor hotel"? And the CC of Atlantic City was a private club.

Here are a couple of aerials of Marble Hall:

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=5973&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=4518&CISOBOX=1&REC=1

[Mike Cirba]

Yes, Tom, and at Kiawah and Bandon I stayed in a bungalow.

[Tom MacWood]

Yes, Tom, and at Kiawah and Bandon I stayed in a bungalow.

I stayed in villas at Pinehurst and Pebble Beach. Do you know the one thing all four resorts have in common? Hotel.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom, 

Where is the hotel at Bandon? 

[Tom MacWood]

I'd mistakenly thought this was a hotel, but actually it is large home in a resort community. How much do these places go for?

[Dale Jackson]

Tom, 

Where is the hotel at Bandon? 

Uh, about a 15 second walk from the first tee.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a short article on the opening of the first course at Sunset Fields, and a later aerial of the 36-hole complex.

[Mike Cirba]

Darn, I thought that was the clubhouse.   Hmmm....

Ok, let me see if I have this straight.

One Hotel = Resort
Multiple Hotels = No Resort
Bungalow Hotel = No Resort
Lodging along all Fairways = No Resort
Real Estate = Resort or No Resort
Recreational Amenities = Resort or No Resort
Resort Development Community = No Resort
Yacht Parking = No Resort

Do I have this correct, Tom?   

Wouldn't it be simpler and more accurate to just identify those courses you can play and stay, particularly those where people vacationed, and particularly those where the ultra-rich of the time vacationed, as resort courses?

How about our rating system?

Aerial Photo from 10,000 feet with lots of bunkers = Good
Aerial Photo from 10,000 feet with fewer bunkers = Bad
Aerial Photo from 20,000 feet with eeery eminence = Better

This is sort of a silly discussion, don't you think?



p.s.   Did you see my questions about the public course in Cleveland?    Thanks

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