Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[DMoriarty]

How can one attempt to present a list of the best public courses of the era when it's pretty clear they are researching this on the fly and then making it up ass they go?  

Funny coming from a guy who declared the "fact" that Cobbs Creek was better than any public course opened prior to Bethpage Black.

Why don't you tell us about your extensive survey of all the public courses in existence prior to the opening of Bethpage Black???

Lest you continue on with this nonsense about how MacWood's list is a catch all, there were reportedly 700 public courses in America by 1931.

[Mike Cirba]

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[TEPaul]

MikeC:


Regarding your last post-----don't worry about it. The only two who seem to take you to task on this thread and others are MacWood and Moriarty and it seems it has become crystal clear to most everyone on here those two are just a couple of blatant hypocrites saddled by a long time agenda to promote themselves by knocking Philadelphia architects, architecture and Philadelphians interested in the subject generally.

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Most of the "sophisticated bunkering" at Baederwood, formerly Huntingdon Valley, was due to the efforts of Ab Smith, the first Philadelphia Amateur champion (1897), who repeated in 1911, and who was one of the co-creators of Cobbs Creek.

For a number of years in the early teens, as head of the Green Committee at HVGC, Smith worked tirelessly in an effort to strengthen that course, and make it a real test of golf.   In fact, until Merion was bunkered in 1915/16 for the US Amateur, Huntingdon Valley was deemed as the only course in the Philly area (fully open) that was a worthwhile championship test.   Even though Philly Cricket had hosted major events, everyone in town saw that it was flawed and unable to keep up with changes to the golf ball.

Ab Smith? CH Alison doesn't deserve any credit? Do you know if Alison redesigned the existing golf course or built a new course on the old site?

[TEPaul]

"The funniest and saddest thing is that this train wreck is happening under the banner of poor little, modest Juniata Golf Course, which even in its shabbiest form as an run-down muni in a bad neighborhood deserves a little bit more dignity and civility than these "historians" have provided here."


MikeC:

Yes indeed, the fact of poor little modest Juniata on this thread is the funniest and saddest thing-----particularly as MacWood wants to know and has asked a number of times if Wilson's name attached to it should serve to drag his reputation as an architect down!  

Apparently MacWood never considered that the clearly humble Hugh I. Wilson did not exactly intend to try to hit a home run with some of the other golf courses he got involved with other than Merion East and CC. That's quite the architectural oversight for a guy who constantly promotes himself on here as some kind of 'expert researcher/writer/historian' on golf course architecture and architects, don't you think?

[Tom MacWood]

I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadwobrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Baederwood (1928) - CH.Alison
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[TEPaul]

"I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland."


Tom MacWood:

Why don't you just go ahead and add to your evolving list the remainder of the 700 public courses your cohort Moriarty just claimed existed in this country up to the end of this particular timeframe so we can all be done with it?

Is an expert researcher such as yourself having a hard time researching what they are? If so maybe some of the others on here can help you out. I suppose there must be some point to your slowly evolving list even though it appears most have not yet figured out what that point is.

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Ab Smith? CH Alison doesn't deserve any credit? Do you know if Alison redesigned the existing golf course or built a new course on the old site?

Tom,

What did C.H. Alison do at Baederwood and how different was it from the Huntingdon Valley course it replaced?

You said,

Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.  


Could you please compare and contrast the bunkering that was at HVGC previously with the work Alison did and tell us when he did it?

Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.

[Tom MacWood]

"I added two courses from the Twin Cities and one more from Cleveland."


Tom MacWood:

Why don't you just go ahead and add to your evolving list the remainder of the 700 public courses your cohort Moriarty just claimed existed in this country up to the end of this particular timeframe so we can all be done with it?

Is an expert researcher such as yourself having a hard time researching what they are? If so maybe some of the others on here can help you out. I suppose there must be some point to your slowly evolving list even though it appears most have not yet figured out what that point is.

TEP
Again, I thank for your participation on this thread, as usual you have lent us great insight into this subject, and in general golf architecture history. Keep up the good work.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built  and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.

Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Again, I thank for your participation on this thread, as usual you have lent us great insight into this subject, and in general golf architecture history. Keep up the good work."


Thank you, thank you very much, Tom MacWood. I wish I could say the same for your participation and particularly Moriarty's on this thread.

[TEPaul]

“Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.”


Tom MacWood:

If you did not know the answer to that question then why did you say the following earlier about Baederwood and Alison’s involvement there?



“Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.” 

[Peter Pallotta]

I asked earlier if we had any reason to believe that the USGA, in choosing sites for the Publinx Championship, did a good job of identifying the best venues of the day.  (I really don't know the answer to that - I assume that then, as now, the choice of USGA championship venues is based on many factors, with architectural quality being only one).  But, in the absence so far of any other method of whittling down the list of all public courses around at the time, I thought I'd just recap:

The first bunch of courses (1922-36, I think) that the USGA chose to host the Publinx (and the USGA seemed to do a decent job of moving the championship around the country - though I'm surprised there is no course from Chicago there) are:

Ottawa Park, Toledo, Ohio;
E. Potomac Park, Washington, D.C
Community C.C., Dayton, Ohio;
Salisbury C.C., Garden City, N.Y
Grover Cleveland Park, Buffalo, N.Y
Ridgewood G.L., Cleveland, Ohio
Cobb's Creek, Philadephia, Pa
Forest Park, St. Louis, Mo
Municipal Links, Jacksonville, Fla
Keller G.C., St. Paul, Minn
Shawnee G.C., Louisville, Ky
Eastmoreland G.C., Portland, Ore
S. Park Allegheny C.L., Pittsburgh, Pa
Coffin Course, Indianapolis, Ind
Bethpage State Park, Farmingdale, N.Y

Tom M noted that "all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best -- for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.".  

So if we add those to the list, again, the question - Do we think this grouping of courses represents a useful first-step in identifying what public courses were thought of as the best of their era?

Peter

[TEPaul]

Peter:

When it came to the USGA scheduling tournaments back in that era, one thing you may keep in mind was that in that era of that list the USGA had only one or two people in a small office in New York City actually working for the board of directors who were all volunteers with other careers. Even when the 34 year Executive Director, the famous Mr. Joe Dey, took over in 1935 the only staff was he and two other guys in NYC. By comparison today in Far Hills, NJ, the present home of the USGA they have over 300 people working there. Back in that day I suspect the quality of the courses used as venues for the Publinks championships may've occured to them but I probably wasn't all that high on their priority list.

But back then and still today, the USGA doesn't exactly go out looking for clubs and courses to hold championships-----the latter still pretty much have to come to them with a request first and if they pass a board vote they are extended an invitation.

[Tom MacWood]

Peter
All those golf courses are either on my list or were strongly considered for the list. The courses that didn't make the grade were either private clubs or in cities which had better public courses. And I didn't stop at 1936, there are worthy courses that hosted the US Publinx after 1936, including the three I just added.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built  and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.

Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.

It is not a list of municipal courses, it is a list of public/daily fee courses, and Beaver Tail falls under that category. Resort courses and private courses turned public do not qualify. By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174.

[Tom MacWood]

“Mike
If I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have asked you and Kyle if Alison redesigned the existing course or created a new course on the old site. From your nimble non-answer that would make three of us who don't know the answer. Whoever is responsible it is a much more sophisticated design than CC.”


Tom MacWood:

If you did not know the answer to that question then why did you say the following earlier about Baederwood and Alison’s involvement there?



“Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement. I believe it was his last American design. Both courses do a good job of utilizing a stream - at Baederwood it comes into play on 15 of the 18 holes. But there is no contest when it comes to the bunkering. CC had fairly crude and simplistic bunkering; Baederwood had a much more interesting and artistic scheme.” 

Because Alison was involved, and the course exhibited a number of his tail tell signs.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

As the word "Muni" is in the title I must have been mistaken...

I also missed the question in Post #174.

The answersare several and all quite simple. First, the courses chosen for use in the Public Links Championship were the Black and the Blue. When the Black was not available they changed to the Blue and the Red. The final rounds were played on the Blue. It was considered superior for the tournament's use by the USGA.

Secondly, from 1935 when the Blue opened as the first of the three new courses to do so, until well into the 1940's, there were only TWO courses used for exhibition matches for professional men to compete on; the Black and Blue. In fact, the first few exhibition matches were hosted on the BLUE course. Players such as Paul Runyan, Jimmy Hines and other big names competed in them and all sung its praise.

In addition, there are numerous articles from those years which more than allude to it being the superior course. For example, if you visit the Tillinghast Association website and take a look at the slideshow on Bethpage, there is an article detailing defending champion Strafaci's first round of play on the "Red course" while others "scores mounted on the much tougher, par 72 Blue course..."

Below is a typical article about the Blue course. This is from May 10th, 1935, New York Times, the day after a number of professionals played a "test round" on the course. Nopte the quote from "Whiffy Cox" found in the headline: "The Finest Public Links I Have Ever Seen." 






 

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

What you also don't realize is that the original BLUE course was considered to be a better and far more challenging course than the Red which is why it was chosen as one of the original two hosts and was also then chosen to be the site of the final rounds since the Black was no longer going to be used.  

So, in my opinion, if you want your contention that Baederwood was superior to Cobb's Creek up until the Depression, for that is the timeframe that Mike delineated in his opinion, than YOU need to provide those contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof.

Phil-the-Author
That wasn't the question. The question was how do you rationalize your Bethpage Blue/Red comparison after getting on your high horse with the Baederwood/Cobbs comparison? You ought to practice what you preach.

By the way courses involved in the qualifying rounds are not considered a course that hosted the championship. For example North Shore shared the qualifying rounds for 1920 US Am with Engineers, but NS has never hosted the US Am.

As far was the title of the thread that is Mike's not mine. For someone who has participated on this thread for long time now I'm surprised you were not aware of that. The thread took a turn when Mike wrote:

"However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country."

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Because Alison was involved, and the course exhibited a number of his tail tell signs.

Tom,

I'm really very, very curious to hear you tell us what those tell-tale Alison signs at Baederwood were.

Like the Huntingdon Valley course, Baederwood occurpied a very narrow strip of land, was low-lying and stayed very wet, and crossed public roads twice.   Both courses were barely 6000 yards.

You Tom, were the one who questioned Ab Smith's work there, instead preferring to credit Alison, I guess because he had some cache', but probably more because Ab Smith was another of those blasted Philadelphia amateur architects.

So please, I'm all ears...why don't you tell us what Hugh Alison did at Baederwood that made it the epitome of Philadelphia sophistication.

Mike
Don't be so defensive. I'm sure once we are able to determine exactly what happened we will be able to give Ab his just deserves (or not). Regarding Baederwood showing signs of Alison work two things standout to me: the maximization of the stream in the routing and the large prototypical Alison bunkers.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom M noted that "all the courses that were chosen were good, but not necessarily the best of the best -- for example Bethpage-Black, Bethpage-Red, Memorial Park, Harding Park or Starmount Forest never hosted the event.".  

So if we add those to the list, again, the question - Do we think this grouping of courses represents a useful first-step in identifying what public courses were thought of as the best of their era?

Peter

Peter,


Tom was wrong.  Bethpage Red and Harding Park hosted the Publinks in the 1930s, and the Black was selected but wasn't ready, as Phil explained.

I was wrong about Harding Park, but the Red or Black never hosted the event....the Blue hosted it.