Why...

[Greg Tallman]

seriously... why?

Why is it that a home that:

An home that architectural masterpiece set 50 yards off the playing corridor is "intrusive" and detracts from the golf experience?
"Good course but ruined by the houses... a development track"

while...

The ocean alongside a hole is a non factor in terms of design
"Average course... the only reason people talk about it is its proximity to the ocean"

yet

A dunescape a similar distance from the playing corridor makes something an unbelievable design...
"Perfect minimalist natural design... golf the way it should be... a real golfers course"

Perhaps slightly overstated but I get a kick out of those who fall prey to such a mindset.

If the ocean does not matter why should the house... why should the dunes? If you are going to argue that a course is defined within its playing corridors (ocean does not matter) why the other things? If this is true then the house is not a negative and the dunes not a course defining positive. Just can't have it both ways.


Hold on... I think I have a Sharpie here somewhere...

[TEPaul]

Such things as oceans and dunescapes (or a pretty good simulacrum of them) are and have been for so long considered to be a natural  and common occurence and factor in golf, but the same was never felt or said about housing or a housing developments flanking entire golf courses.

On the other hand, other highly artificial and man-made structures and occurences such as roads or railroads were a very common occurence in early golf as even the occasional building (such as a clubhouse) was as well.

However, in almost every case, the foregoing----eg the roads, railroads and occasional building in close proximity to the golf course preceded and predated the golf course and not the other way around like most all housing developments flanking golf courses.

[Mark Pritchett]

Why go on vacation to the beach or the mountains, just kick back and admire some tract housing!

[Adam Clayman]

Greg, There's just a special feeling when one golfs, on a thoughtful design, in a natural setting. I'm not sure if it's palpable for every golfer, but, once one realizes and appreciates the difference, there's few exceptions that can be both compelling and over the top memorable. Maybe it's primordial, maybe it's the reality that nature doesn't succumb to the whims of the day?

[John Shimony]

They nicer and more attractive the house the more nervous I would be over my shot.  For fear of smashing their fine bay window or the windshield of their Audi.

I do not fear a large pecuniary penalty from flying my ball into the sea or heather.

[Greg Tallman]

Don't convince ME... talk to the board... it is this forum that struggles with such issues. I am not saying I agree with and single stance on "the issue" just throwing it out there given the variety of commentary posted on this site previously.

[Bob_Huntley]

Greg,

There are few stuctures that enhance the aesthetics of a golf course but there sure are some interesting ones.

I played Royal Guernsey G.C. a couple of years ago and saw the Martello Towers for the first time. Didn't care for them much but I did get a wonderful history lesson.

See:

http://www.royalguernseygolfclub.com/course.php


You can more detail on Wikipedia.


Bob

[Gary Slatter]

It's strictly a preference type of thing, many golfers (on this site) prefer purely natural corridors on their golf holes, whereas I really don't mind seeing some houses as I feel without the houses there may not have been the money to build the golf course.  There are ugly exceptions (Palmaire seems to be the one course that I really hated bouncing a few drives off balconies in a qualifier many years ago).   Condos on both sides of a hole can be distracting, but so can an ocean.  It's the OB that I dislike the most.

I had been reading GCA for some time before finally getting to Dornoch.  I was very surprised to see housing on the first few holes.  I can't imagine the Old without the olde grey toun.  

when you get right down to it, if the holes are good, then enjoy your round!    Why...not.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

There may be a few here who argue that the ocean view should be discounted, but it's an esoteric argument ... the fact of the matter is that people pay much more for oceanfront real estate, whether to play golf on it or to build a house on it.  Which you certainly know.

In the case of your course, I think it's more likely that people have a negative reaction to the desert environs.  It is just a fact of life that a wayward shot into the desert is less playable than a wayward shot into the sand dunes.  And for a lot of people, that's a big deal, because golf is about playing the ball from wherever you've hit it.

[Michael Huber]

why doesnt anyone ever complain about the houses around pebble beach?

what about the building next to the 17th hole? 

[Bart Bradley]

Greg:

It is hypocritical for the board members to say those things....

the houses matter, the dunes matter, the ocean matters...end of story (at least in my opinion  )

Bart

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

There may be a few here who argue that the ocean view should be discounted, but it's an esoteric argument ... the fact of the matter is that people pay much more for oceanfront real estate, whether to play golf on it or to build a house on it.  Which you certainly know.

In the case of your course, I think it's more likely that people have a negative reaction to the desert environs.  It is just a fact of life that a wayward shot into the desert is less playable than a wayward shot into the sand dunes.  And for a lot of people, that's a big deal, because golf is about playing the ball from wherever you've hit it.

Interesting though somehwat untrue using only the two relevant courses in our immediate area as test cases. Much of the desert surrounds of The Ocean Course are infinitely more playable than the majority of dunes at Diamante given the wicked scrub that covers much of their dunes which most of the time of the time results in a lost ball. That said watching their director of golf take a herculean whack at a ball resting on a dune perched 20 feet above the putting surface advancing it about 2 feet and watching it trundle down the slope and nestle a foot from the hole is highly entertaining and illustrates your point. Doing the same from decomposed granite with a Cholla climbing up your backside is just not as entertaining... at least for the person playing the shot, but if it were say, Anthony Gray authoring such a shot I believe I woudl be wildly entertained.  

Is Bay of Dreams (parts) your most desert environs design to date? I suppose Stone Eagle and Stonghold would technically qualify but not really in the sense we are talkng. Given what you state above is that the rationale for the generous playing ciorridors at Sueños? Why not clear the desert area and make it more playable? I assume I know the answer given your design philsophy but if celaring wider area for grass why not narrower fairways and "playable desert". By the way #5 at Sueños is as visually captivating as any perfectly flat desert hole I have ever played.

Up Saturday for round 2 at Sueños... perhpas I can land a couple more jabs this round... nearly went down by TKO in round 1.  

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

It is hypocritical for the board members to say those things....

the houses matter, the dunes matter, the ocean matters...end of story (at least in my opinion  )

Bart

Brutal honestly was not being solicited... but thanks... and of course you are dead on!

I believe the easiest answer is yours alond with a single word... serenity, which housing disrupts unlike the other two. That said perhpas Frank Lloyd Wright would have preferred playing through a deveopment littered with homes that were architectural masterpieces

[TEPaul]

"Greg, There's just a special feeling when one golfs,...."



Adam:

MY GOD, my good man, what came over you? Did you briefly get swallowed by a Black Hole?? One never says one golfs!! One only PLAYS golf!!

Now go wash out your mouth, wash your typing fingers and your mind and never again use golf as a verb! It simply IS NOT DONE! Well, at least never in what might be remotely considered "polite and informed society." 

[Chip Gaskins]

Of course none of us like houses everywhere, but I really enjoyed looking around at Riviera seeing all those houses.  They are on the rim of the course and don't come into play, but there are ever present and actually add to the the (my) experience.  Maybe its a LA thing.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, You call this polite society?

I'm sticking to my guns that golf transcends even the rules of grammar.

Besides does one one play at Mountain climbing? Fishing? Ya know, a real sport, not a game?

I was brought up with the understanding that the real golfers golf. People who litter the golf courses that take 4 1/2 hrs. to finish, are the the low lifes that play golf.

[Anthony Gray]

Tom, You call this polite society?

I'm sticking to my guns that golf transcends even the rules of grammar.

Besides does one one play at Mountain climbing? Fishing? Ya know, a real sport, not a game?

I was brought up with the understanding that the real golfers golf. People who litter the golf courses that take 4 1/2 hrs. to finish, are the the low lifes that play golf.

  Excellent Point...Were there pigs at The Bay Of Piggs? Not everybody gets it Adam. good poinnt.

   Anthony

[Brett_Morrissy]

Greg you alluded to the answer in my experience.

Teeing off early on a Saturday morning and playing a Great White Shark layout where on the tee, we could not only hear the tenants of their house talking, we could hear them cooking their breakfast - toast popping up in the toaster.

Thankfully most examples of this are rare, but they are still about.

Waves crashing, birdlife in the dunes, although making noises, seem natural, and are perhaps repetitive, so as a golfer, we are used to it - unlike a cough or a sneeze, etc which can be disruptive to those not mentally robust. or even those mentally strong - but all disrupt the serenity as stated earlier.
Brett M

[Kalen Braley]

Even CPC has a few houses bordering up to a couple of holes.

So on-course housing can't be that bad right?